Trump has Putin over a barrel (of oil)

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SteveFoerster
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Re: Trump has Putin over a barrel (of oil)

Post by SteveFoerster » Sun Feb 11, 2018 10:23 am

On the one hand, Sertorio is quite right that the U.S. acts in aggressive ways that would get any other country branded as a rogue state. On the other, his irrational belief that Russia and China are meaningfully different in any way other than inferior ability to project power is baffling. Perhaps he maintains that belief because of what your say, Cassowary. Or, given his penchant for posting overt Russian propaganda, I've never seen any reason to dismiss the possibility perhaps he's really part of the web brigades. *shrug*
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Sertorio
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Re: Trump has Putin over a barrel (of oil)

Post by Sertorio » Sun Feb 11, 2018 10:52 am

SteveFoerster wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 10:23 am
On the one hand, Sertorio is quite right that the U.S. acts in aggressive ways that would get any other country branded as a rogue state. On the other, his irrational belief that Russia and China are meaningfully different in any way other than inferior ability to project power is baffling.
You forget that both China and Russia are very old cultures, and that they have both learned that brute power seldom brings the results one might want. They are not above making their power felt by others, but they tend to do it in a relatively soft manner, which will not humiliate those upon whom such power is applied. The US, unfortunately, hasn't had yet the time to learn polite conversation. A kick on the testicles is their idea of a soft approach...
SteveFoerster wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 10:23 am
Or, given his penchant for posting overt Russian propaganda, I've never seen any reason to dismiss the possibility perhaps he's really part of the web brigades. *shrug*
Propaganda does not have to be built on lies. And much of Russian propaganda is based on enough facts to make their point credible. On the other hand, publishing articles or opinions quoted from RT or Sputnik doesn't mean passing on propaganda. Very often those articles are written by western writers and scholars, who just happen to have opinions different from those one gets in the western media. What baffles me is your inability to accept that a different opinion is nothing more than a different opinion, not a piece of propaganda. And you are not prepared to accept that a different opinion may be better than your opinion, and that those who have different opinions are not paid to voice such opinions. To think that I would subject myself to being paid to say things which you don't like, is a bit primitive...

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Re: Trump has Putin over a barrel (of oil)

Post by SteveFoerster » Sun Feb 11, 2018 11:08 am

Sertorio wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 10:52 am
SteveFoerster wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 10:23 am
On the one hand, Sertorio is quite right that the U.S. acts in aggressive ways that would get any other country branded as a rogue state. On the other, his irrational belief that Russia and China are meaningfully different in any way other than inferior ability to project power is baffling.
You forget that both China and Russia are very old cultures, and that they have both learned that brute power seldom brings the results one might want. They are not above making their power felt by others, but they tend to do it in a relatively soft manner, which will not humiliate those upon whom such power is applied. The US, unfortunately, hasn't had yet the time to learn polite conversation. A kick on the testicles is their idea of a soft approach...
Cultures don't know things, individuals do. That's why Westerners read Sun Tzu, and Asians read Clausewitz. Besides, if Soviet policymakers all knew this so well thanks to ancient Russian culture, they wouldn't have gotten bogged down in a quagmire in Afghanistan in the '80s.
Sertorio wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 10:52 am
SteveFoerster wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 10:23 am
Or, given his penchant for posting overt Russian propaganda, I've never seen any reason to dismiss the possibility perhaps he's really part of the web brigades. *shrug*
Propaganda does not have to be built on lies. And much of Russian propaganda is based on enough facts to make their point credible.
Of course it is. If it were DPRK-style nonsense no one outside Russia would read it and that would defeat the purpose. For propaganda outlets, truth is a tool used to reach the objective of plausibility, but in no way is it an objective in and of itself.
Sertorio wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 10:52 am
On the other hand, publishing articles or opinions quoted from RT or Sputnik doesn't mean passing on propaganda. Very often those articles are written by western writers and scholars, who just happen to have opinions different from those one gets in the western media.
It's still propaganda, because nothing makes it into RT or Sputnik unless it conforms to a particular narrative that's supported by the Putin regime.

I mean, when you refer to Westerners who work for RT, this comes to mind immediately: https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/07/ ... 98815.html
Sertorio wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 10:52 am
What baffles me is your inability to accept that a different opinion is nothing more than a different opinion, not a piece of propaganda. And you are not prepared to accept that a different opinion may be better than your opinion, and that those who have different opinions are not paid to voice such opinions. To think that I would subject myself to being paid to say things which you don't like, is a bit primitive...
Then you're easily baffled, because I've said more than once that I don't think that something is necessarily false solely because it's on RT. Or CNN, for that matter, which is also propaganda. Like the joke goes, "In capitalist America, even propaganda is privatised!"
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neverfail
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Re: Trump has Putin over a barrel (of oil)

Post by neverfail » Sun Feb 11, 2018 2:10 pm

Sertorio wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 10:52 am


You forget that both China and Russia are very old cultures, and that they have both learned that brute power seldom brings the results one might want. They are not above making their power felt by others, but they tend to do it in a relatively soft manner, which will not humiliate those upon whom such power is applied.

:o :lol: :lol: :| :cry:

Sertorio; have you tried telling that to the Chechens?

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Sertorio
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Re: Trump has Putin over a barrel (of oil)

Post by Sertorio » Sun Feb 11, 2018 4:28 pm

neverfail wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 2:10 pm
Sertorio wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 10:52 am


You forget that both China and Russia are very old cultures, and that they have both learned that brute power seldom brings the results one might want. They are not above making their power felt by others, but they tend to do it in a relatively soft manner, which will not humiliate those upon whom such power is applied.

:o :lol: :lol: :| :cry:

Sertorio; have you tried telling that to the Chechens?
There are exceptions, I agree, but in the end the Chechens got a lot of goodies, and a sparkling new capital... I bet they think they got the best deal possible... :D

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cassowary
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Re: Trump has Putin over a barrel (of oil)

Post by cassowary » Sun Feb 11, 2018 8:35 pm

Sertorio wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 10:09 am
cassowary wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 8:17 am
Sertorio keeps getting things wrong. I have a theory why.

The uinderlying problem is his faith in Socialism. This has poisoned his whole worldview. He has been a life long Socialist/Communist. So during the Cold War, he was rooting for the Soviet Union to win, like so many leftists. Yes, they may dislike their totalitarianism. But for the left, the ultimate good is the triumph of Socialism. So totalitarian government is a small price to pay.

Then it follows that the US must be the evil one, for it stood in the way of the Soviet Union, the vanguard in the struggle for workers' rights. Even after the fall of the Berlin Wall, nothing changed - the US remains their devil. So those who opposed the US must be the good guys. Russia, after the Cold War, still retains a special place in their hearts. Not only is Russia, the successor of their beloved Soviet Union, it still opposes the US, the bad guy.

So Russia is a force for good for the leftist. This is despite all evidence to the contrary. They twist themselves into pretzels that are laughable. The US oppresses the Europeans when most Europeans want the US to protect them against Russia.

Sertorio, of course, refuses to see this. If it is true that the US is the good guy protecting the Europeans from Russia and its predecessor the USSR, then Socialism cannot be something good. This is deeply troubling for him.
You should be writing scripts for Holywood, such is your imagination...

If you weren't completely blinded by your worship of the strong against the weak, you would realize that the US is nothing more than a predatory power, whose only argument is brute power and the capability to destroy all those which oppose their greed. The cult of violence permeates the whole American society, notwithstanding the fact that a significant minority of Americans oppose that violence as strongly as I do. Occasionally the US fights the real bad guys, as it happened in the war against the nazis, but that's the exception. And the sad truth is that the US administrations increasingly resemble the nazis they fought against. Force, brute force, killing and torture are the tools of American policy, both at home and abroad, as we have seen in Vietnam, in Iraq, and now see in the Middle East and in Korea.

Only Russia and China can stop the destructive influence of the US in our present world, so let's hope they will succeed before the US destroys half of the world.
And you should be writing scripts for Mosfilm.

You are the one that is blind to historical evidence. All attempts to implement Socialism led to poverty and dictatorships. The latest example is Venezuela.

You forgot the US fought against the Socialists both in the Cold War and hot wars - Korean and Vietnam war. I consider them the bad guys too. Do you think they were the good guys? I think Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot were all as bad as Hitler, if not worse.

I think your response proves my theory correct. your love or Socialism has poisoned your worldview.

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Re: Trump has Putin over a barrel (of oil)

Post by cassowary » Sun Feb 11, 2018 8:42 pm

Sertorio wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 4:28 pm
neverfail wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 2:10 pm
Sertorio wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 10:52 am


You forget that both China and Russia are very old cultures, and that they have both learned that brute power seldom brings the results one might want. They are not above making their power felt by others, but they tend to do it in a relatively soft manner, which will not humiliate those upon whom such power is applied.

:o :lol: :lol: :| :cry:

Sertorio; have you tried telling that to the Chechens?
There are exceptions, I agree, but in the end the Chechens got a lot of goodies, and a sparkling new capital... I bet they think they got the best deal possible... :D
See. It is impossible for you to admit that Russia is a bad guy. Or it will shake your worldview which will cause you mental anguish. Or, as Steve said, you might be one of Putin's paid keyboard warriors. Is the money good?

neverfail
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Re: Trump has Putin over a barrel (of oil)

Post by neverfail » Mon Feb 12, 2018 4:02 am

cassowary wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 8:42 pm

See. It is impossible for you to admit that Russia is a bad guy. Or it will shake your worldview which will cause you mental anguish.
:roll:

Well cassowary; when was the last time you publically conceded that at times America has behaved like the bad guy?

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Sertorio
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Re: Trump has Putin over a barrel (of oil)

Post by Sertorio » Mon Feb 12, 2018 4:47 am

cassowary wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 8:42 pm
Sertorio wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 4:28 pm

There are exceptions, I agree, but in the end the Chechens got a lot of goodies, and a sparkling new capital... I bet they think they got the best deal possible... :D
See. It is impossible for you to admit that Russia is a bad guy. Or it will shake your worldview which will cause you mental anguish. Or, as Steve said, you might be one of Putin's paid keyboard warriors. Is the money good?
Grozny during the war against Russia

Image

Grozny as it is now, after the Russian government helped to rebuild it

Image

Is this propaganda? Probably yes, but the facts remain. Chechens suffered during the war and have it now a lot better than they ever had. When will the "good guys" - the US - rebuild Iraqi and Syrian cities in the same manner?... :evil:

Mosul after the "good guys" liberated it

Image

When will the US start rebuilding Mosul?...

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cassowary
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Re: Trump has Putin over a barrel (of oil)

Post by cassowary » Mon Feb 12, 2018 5:56 am

neverfail wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 2018 4:02 am
cassowary wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 8:42 pm

See. It is impossible for you to admit that Russia is a bad guy. Or it will shake your worldview which will cause you mental anguish.
:roll:

Well cassowary; when was the last time you publically conceded that at times America has behaved like the bad guy?
When was the last time they were the bad guys? Maybe the Indian wars in the 19th century. Or the war in the Philippines after they got it from Spain. Long ago.

Since WWII, there was no war that I did not want America to win.

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