Advantages of being allied to the US

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neverfail
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Re: Advantages of being allied to the US

Post by neverfail » Sun Dec 01, 2019 9:49 pm

Sertorio wrote:
Sun Dec 01, 2019 1:56 pm

But only the US can drag Australia into a war where many Australians could get killed. Without Australian interests being at risk at all... It has already happened. In Vietnam. And it could happen again. But this time against a very powerful China... Are you willing to take that risk?...
I sometimes wonder whether we would have so willingly become embroiled in the Second World War had Nazi Germany been, back in 1939, a trading partner for Australia anything like as important as the PRC is today? The point was that the Third Reich was insignificant to this country for external trade. By contrast the United Kingdom was not merely important but crucial. Two thirds of everything we produced for export at the time was sold to the UK and two thirds of all we imported came from the same country. One third of our entire GDP comprised goods for export. In addition at least 90% of all external capital invested in this country came from there. Australia declared war on the Third Reich in September 1939 less because Britain was our sole ally at the time but because we could not have afforded to have lost this crucial overseas market and source of supply. Wherever mother England went in those days so did we.

The PRC currently accounts for around one third of our exports and provides considerably less than that of our imports. It may by now supply us with around one tenth of our investment capital. This means that while the PRC is very important to Australia as you can see it is still far less important to us in 2019 than the United Kingdom was in 1939.

Important enough to make us take pause should any US government demand that we drop our ties with it. The USA by contrast imports considerably less than the PRC from this country but runs a perennially surplus trade balance with us due to the fact that it keeps its markets closed to goods that the PRC freely imports from us. Which means that its economic "grip" on us is considerably less compelling than that of the PRC.

So Sertorio, in summary: should the USA demand one day that we sacrifice all of that for the sake of joining itself in a war with China, unlike in the case of 1960's Vietnam (and some others since) which were with countries of absolutely no importance to us in economic terms, any Australian government would more likely balk at the prospect and politely declare Australia's neutrality.

The terms and conditions of our (ANZUS) defense treaty would legally allow us to do this. You see, the treaty only compels both countries to consult with one another in the event that either is attacked by a third power: it does not legally oblige either to go to war. Further, it does not oblige one to assist the other if it is the aggressor that does the attacking in the first place.

neverfail
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Re: Advantages of being allied to the US

Post by neverfail » Mon Dec 02, 2019 4:04 am

Sertorio wrote:
Sat Nov 30, 2019 9:31 am
Sorry, No Refund: US Won’t Compensate Australia For Defective $85 Million Fighter Jet

The United States won’t compensate Australia for a defective US-made EA-18G Growler fighter jet that caught fire during a training exercise due to an engine malfunction, Air Vice-Marshal Greg Hoffman told the country’s Senate Estimates Committee on 29 November. The specialised version of the F/A-18F Super Hornet jet, which cost Australian taxpayers 85 million dollars, burst into flames while attempting to take off at a US military base in Nevada in 2018. The Australian Defence Force scrapped the aircraft from its service, leaving it with 11 Growler fighter jets in its fleet.

(...)

Asked why Canberra won’t be reimbursed for the jet that broke down, not because of a pilot error, but due to technical malfunction, Air Vice-Marshal Greg Hoffman said that the jets had been purchased under a contract that didn’t allow for compensation.
During Friday’s hearing, Australia’s Defence Ministry delivered another piece of “good” news to senators and taxpayers, saying that the country’s fleet of 72 F-35 fighter jets, worth 18 billion dollars, would also be delivered without warranty.

https://sputniknews.com/world/201911301 ... ghter-jet/
Had Australia bought reliable aircraft from a reliable country, like Russia, it wouldn't have this sort of problems... :D
Returning to your opening gambit Sertorio: back in the Cold War era the United States would never have sold advanced armaments to an allied country without warranties. Now that their is no nemesis superpower in the offing that can match the US they have apparently grown complaisant and are now apparently protecting the bottom lines of their armaments producers by waiving warranty guarantees. Thanks for drawing my attention to that. Perhaps we should take our business elsewhere after all (as we are already doing with our submarines and several other categories of armaments.) Thanks for drawing my attention to that. :D

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Sertorio
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Re: Advantages of being allied to the US

Post by Sertorio » Mon Dec 02, 2019 4:40 am

neverfail wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 4:04 am
Sertorio wrote:
Sat Nov 30, 2019 9:31 am
Sorry, No Refund: US Won’t Compensate Australia For Defective $85 Million Fighter Jet

The United States won’t compensate Australia for a defective US-made EA-18G Growler fighter jet that caught fire during a training exercise due to an engine malfunction, Air Vice-Marshal Greg Hoffman told the country’s Senate Estimates Committee on 29 November. The specialised version of the F/A-18F Super Hornet jet, which cost Australian taxpayers 85 million dollars, burst into flames while attempting to take off at a US military base in Nevada in 2018. The Australian Defence Force scrapped the aircraft from its service, leaving it with 11 Growler fighter jets in its fleet.

(...)

Asked why Canberra won’t be reimbursed for the jet that broke down, not because of a pilot error, but due to technical malfunction, Air Vice-Marshal Greg Hoffman said that the jets had been purchased under a contract that didn’t allow for compensation.
During Friday’s hearing, Australia’s Defence Ministry delivered another piece of “good” news to senators and taxpayers, saying that the country’s fleet of 72 F-35 fighter jets, worth 18 billion dollars, would also be delivered without warranty.

https://sputniknews.com/world/201911301 ... ghter-jet/
Had Australia bought reliable aircraft from a reliable country, like Russia, it wouldn't have this sort of problems... :D
Returning to your opening gambit Sertorio: back in the Cold War era the United States would never have sold advanced armaments to an allied country without warranties. Now that their is no nemesis superpower in the offing that can match the US they have apparently grown complaisant and are now apparently protecting the bottom lines of their armaments producers by waiving warranty guarantees. Thanks for drawing my attention to that. Perhaps we should take our business elsewhere after all (as we are already doing with our submarines and several other categories of armaments.) Thanks for drawing my attention to that. :D
How much longer until the US is completely isolated? Being "protected" by the US is like buying protection from the Mafia...

Jim the Moron
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Re: Advantages of being allied to the US

Post by Jim the Moron » Mon Dec 02, 2019 4:55 am

Sertorio wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 4:40 am
neverfail wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 4:04 am
Sertorio wrote:
Sat Nov 30, 2019 9:31 am
Sorry, No Refund: US Won’t Compensate Australia For Defective $85 Million Fighter Jet

The United States won’t compensate Australia for a defective US-made EA-18G Growler fighter jet that caught fire during a training exercise due to an engine malfunction, Air Vice-Marshal Greg Hoffman told the country’s Senate Estimates Committee on 29 November. The specialised version of the F/A-18F Super Hornet jet, which cost Australian taxpayers 85 million dollars, burst into flames while attempting to take off at a US military base in Nevada in 2018. The Australian Defence Force scrapped the aircraft from its service, leaving it with 11 Growler fighter jets in its fleet.

(...)

Asked why Canberra won’t be reimbursed for the jet that broke down, not because of a pilot error, but due to technical malfunction, Air Vice-Marshal Greg Hoffman said that the jets had been purchased under a contract that didn’t allow for compensation.
During Friday’s hearing, Australia’s Defence Ministry delivered another piece of “good” news to senators and taxpayers, saying that the country’s fleet of 72 F-35 fighter jets, worth 18 billion dollars, would also be delivered without warranty.

https://sputniknews.com/world/201911301 ... ghter-jet/
Had Australia bought reliable aircraft from a reliable country, like Russia, it wouldn't have this sort of problems... :D
Returning to your opening gambit Sertorio: back in the Cold War era the United States would never have sold advanced armaments to an allied country without warranties. Now that their is no nemesis superpower in the offing that can match the US they have apparently grown complaisant and are now apparently protecting the bottom lines of their armaments producers by waiving warranty guarantees. Thanks for drawing my attention to that. Perhaps we should take our business elsewhere after all (as we are already doing with our submarines and several other categories of armaments.) Thanks for drawing my attention to that. :D
How much longer until the US is completely isolated? Being "protected" by the US is like buying protection from the Mafia...
Americans are increasingly anxious for the time when civilized nations no longer insist on US "protection" - e.g. Europe, Japan, S Korea, etc. If withdrawing "protection" from needy entities results in isolation (presumably in the military sense), then so be it.

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Sertorio
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Re: Advantages of being allied to the US

Post by Sertorio » Mon Dec 02, 2019 5:09 am

Jim the Moron wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 4:55 am
Sertorio wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 4:40 am
neverfail wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 4:04 am
Sertorio wrote:
Sat Nov 30, 2019 9:31 am
Sorry, No Refund: US Won’t Compensate Australia For Defective $85 Million Fighter Jet

The United States won’t compensate Australia for a defective US-made EA-18G Growler fighter jet that caught fire during a training exercise due to an engine malfunction, Air Vice-Marshal Greg Hoffman told the country’s Senate Estimates Committee on 29 November. The specialised version of the F/A-18F Super Hornet jet, which cost Australian taxpayers 85 million dollars, burst into flames while attempting to take off at a US military base in Nevada in 2018. The Australian Defence Force scrapped the aircraft from its service, leaving it with 11 Growler fighter jets in its fleet.

(...)

Asked why Canberra won’t be reimbursed for the jet that broke down, not because of a pilot error, but due to technical malfunction, Air Vice-Marshal Greg Hoffman said that the jets had been purchased under a contract that didn’t allow for compensation.
During Friday’s hearing, Australia’s Defence Ministry delivered another piece of “good” news to senators and taxpayers, saying that the country’s fleet of 72 F-35 fighter jets, worth 18 billion dollars, would also be delivered without warranty.

https://sputniknews.com/world/201911301 ... ghter-jet/
Had Australia bought reliable aircraft from a reliable country, like Russia, it wouldn't have this sort of problems... :D
Returning to your opening gambit Sertorio: back in the Cold War era the United States would never have sold advanced armaments to an allied country without warranties. Now that their is no nemesis superpower in the offing that can match the US they have apparently grown complaisant and are now apparently protecting the bottom lines of their armaments producers by waiving warranty guarantees. Thanks for drawing my attention to that. Perhaps we should take our business elsewhere after all (as we are already doing with our submarines and several other categories of armaments.) Thanks for drawing my attention to that. :D
How much longer until the US is completely isolated? Being "protected" by the US is like buying protection from the Mafia...
Americans are increasingly anxious for the time when civilized nations no longer insist on US "protection" - e.g. Europe, Japan, S Korea, etc. If withdrawing "protection" from needy entities results in isolation (presumably in the military sense), then so be it.
I hope most Americans will come to share your views on this matter. It would be good for the US and very much so for the rest of us. Arms producers may not share our feelings, though...

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Doc
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Re: Advantages of being allied to the US

Post by Doc » Mon Dec 02, 2019 12:33 pm

Sertorio wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 5:09 am
Jim the Moron wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 4:55 am
Sertorio wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 4:40 am
neverfail wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 4:04 am
Sertorio wrote:
Sat Nov 30, 2019 9:31 am
Sorry, No Refund: US Won’t Compensate Australia For Defective $85 Million Fighter Jet

The United States won’t compensate Australia for a defective US-made EA-18G Growler fighter jet that caught fire during a training exercise due to an engine malfunction, Air Vice-Marshal Greg Hoffman told the country’s Senate Estimates Committee on 29 November. The specialised version of the F/A-18F Super Hornet jet, which cost Australian taxpayers 85 million dollars, burst into flames while attempting to take off at a US military base in Nevada in 2018. The Australian Defence Force scrapped the aircraft from its service, leaving it with 11 Growler fighter jets in its fleet.

(...)

Asked why Canberra won’t be reimbursed for the jet that broke down, not because of a pilot error, but due to technical malfunction, Air Vice-Marshal Greg Hoffman said that the jets had been purchased under a contract that didn’t allow for compensation.
During Friday’s hearing, Australia’s Defence Ministry delivered another piece of “good” news to senators and taxpayers, saying that the country’s fleet of 72 F-35 fighter jets, worth 18 billion dollars, would also be delivered without warranty.

https://sputniknews.com/world/201911301 ... ghter-jet/
Had Australia bought reliable aircraft from a reliable country, like Russia, it wouldn't have this sort of problems... :D
Returning to your opening gambit Sertorio: back in the Cold War era the United States would never have sold advanced armaments to an allied country without warranties. Now that their is no nemesis superpower in the offing that can match the US they have apparently grown complaisant and are now apparently protecting the bottom lines of their armaments producers by waiving warranty guarantees. Thanks for drawing my attention to that. Perhaps we should take our business elsewhere after all (as we are already doing with our submarines and several other categories of armaments.) Thanks for drawing my attention to that. :D
How much longer until the US is completely isolated? Being "protected" by the US is like buying protection from the Mafia...
Americans are increasingly anxious for the time when civilized nations no longer insist on US "protection" - e.g. Europe, Japan, S Korea, etc. If withdrawing "protection" from needy entities results in isolation (presumably in the military sense), then so be it.
I hope most Americans will come to share your views on this matter. It would be good for the US and very much so for the rest of us. Arms producers may not share our feelings, though...
When Jim says "Americans" I think he means the military industrial complex are anxious. In any case that is largely true. Most Americans are fed up with the endless wars. AS for the defective Growler. I would think that is something to take up with the manufacture.
“"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros

neverfail
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Re: Advantages of being allied to the US

Post by neverfail » Mon Dec 02, 2019 4:20 pm

Doc wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 12:33 pm

When Jim says "Americans" I think he means the military industrial complex are anxious.
Not just them Doc. Dozens of governments worldwide are understandable anxious over the real prospect of America demolishing the "architecture" of alliances that has kept the world relatively peaceful since 1945.
Doc wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 12:33 pm
Most Americans are fed up with the endless wars.
I cannot say that I blame them. But to cite one of your juicier Americanisms "shit happens". It would be much worse without the admittedly imperfect pax Americana in place.
Doc wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 12:33 pm
AS for the defective Growler. I would think that is something to take up with the manufacture.
They probably have and gotten nowhere with them. That's the rub.

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Doc
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Re: Advantages of being allied to the US

Post by Doc » Tue Dec 03, 2019 4:35 am

neverfail wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 4:20 pm
Doc wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 12:33 pm

When Jim says "Americans" I think he means the military industrial complex are anxious.
Not just them Doc. Dozens of governments worldwide are understandable anxious over the real prospect of America demolishing the "architecture" of alliances that has kept the world relatively peaceful since 1945.
So they are afraid that Germany will invade France again?
Doc wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 12:33 pm
Most Americans are fed up with the endless wars.
I cannot say that I blame them. But to cite one of your juicier Americanisms "shit happens". It would be much worse without the admittedly imperfect pax Americana in place.
Yes of course the other governments of the world are incompetent and wars of conquest are always so tempting.
Doc wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 12:33 pm
AS for the defective Growler. I would think that is something to take up with the manufacture.
They probably have and gotten nowhere with them. That's the rub.
Boeing makes the Growler. As they sell a lot of 100 million dollar aircraft it would seem fairly easy to get back at them.
“"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros

neverfail
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Re: Advantages of being allied to the US

Post by neverfail » Wed Dec 04, 2019 2:39 am

Doc wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 4:35 am
neverfail wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 4:20 pm
Doc wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 12:33 pm

When Jim says "Americans" I think he means the military industrial complex are anxious.
Not just them Doc. Dozens of governments worldwide are understandable anxious over the real prospect of America demolishing the "architecture" of alliances that has kept the world relatively peaceful since 1945.
So they are afraid that Germany will invade France again?
No Doc. Look elsewhere around the World and there are literally dozens of conflicts waiting to break out and together they could merge into a global conflagration that could eclipse the two World Wars.

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Doc
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Re: Advantages of being allied to the US

Post by Doc » Wed Dec 04, 2019 1:21 pm

neverfail wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 2:39 am
Doc wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 4:35 am
neverfail wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 4:20 pm
Doc wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 12:33 pm

When Jim says "Americans" I think he means the military industrial complex are anxious.
Not just them Doc. Dozens of governments worldwide are understandable anxious over the real prospect of America demolishing the "architecture" of alliances that has kept the world relatively peaceful since 1945.
So they are afraid that Germany will invade France again?
No Doc. Look elsewhere around the World and there are literally dozens of conflicts waiting to break out and together they could merge into a global conflagration that could eclipse the two World Wars.
So what are you going to do about all these conflicts NF?
“"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros

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