UK Elections 2019

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Sertorio
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Re: UK Elections 2019

Post by Sertorio » Sun Dec 01, 2019 5:01 am

neverfail wrote:
Sun Dec 01, 2019 3:26 am
Sertorio wrote:
Sun Dec 01, 2019 2:57 am
The UK is a major stumbling block on Europe developping its own defense capabilities.
Of course the fact that the multi national inhabitants of mainland Europe have an endless capacity for squabbles in their own right has nothing to do with Europe's lack of an ex-NATO deference capability, does it?

Who would carry the cost burden? The Germans are already fed up over being treated as the milch cow of the EU. Would French soldiers gladly serve under a German supreme commander? Would anyone trust an Italian field marshal? And so on.

And what about usage of a pan-European force and where? Who would hold that power?

As occasional contributor Alexis wisely pointed out "there is no country called Europe"
Pan-European armed forces would be cheaper than what NATO costs us. We already have formed localized multinational task forces (army and navy) which have been commanded by senior officers of various nationalities, including Portuguese, without any problems arising. The only question is: do we see the need and the advantage for such unified forces? If we do it would be easy to implement it, without spending any more money, provided we give up NATO.

neverfail
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Location: Singapore

Re: UK Elections 2019

Post by neverfail » Mon Dec 02, 2019 4:42 pm

Sertorio wrote:
Sun Dec 01, 2019 5:01 am
neverfail wrote:
Sun Dec 01, 2019 3:26 am
Sertorio wrote:
Sun Dec 01, 2019 2:57 am
The UK is a major stumbling block on Europe developping its own defense capabilities.
Of course the fact that the multi national inhabitants of mainland Europe have an endless capacity for squabbles in their own right has nothing to do with Europe's lack of an ex-NATO deference capability, does it?

Who would carry the cost burden? The Germans are already fed up over being treated as the milch cow of the EU. Would French soldiers gladly serve under a German supreme commander? Would anyone trust an Italian field marshal? And so on.

And what about usage of a pan-European force and where? Who would hold that power?

As occasional contributor Alexis wisely pointed out "there is no country called Europe"
Pan-European armed forces would be cheaper than what NATO costs us. We already have formed localized multinational task forces (army and navy) which have been commanded by senior officers of various nationalities, including Portuguese, without any problems arising. The only question is: do we see the need and the advantage for such unified forces? If we do it would be easy to implement it, without spending any more money, provided we give up NATO.
That's fine for the small stuff Sertorio: but will European peoples, let alone governments, be content with entrusting their nations' (their own) destinies to such a force over which they will have no control whatsoever?

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cassowary
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Re: UK Elections 2019

Post by cassowary » Wed Dec 04, 2019 7:08 am

Sertorio wrote:
Sun Dec 01, 2019 5:01 am
neverfail wrote:
Sun Dec 01, 2019 3:26 am
Sertorio wrote:
Sun Dec 01, 2019 2:57 am
The UK is a major stumbling block on Europe developping its own defense capabilities.
Of course the fact that the multi national inhabitants of mainland Europe have an endless capacity for squabbles in their own right has nothing to do with Europe's lack of an ex-NATO deference capability, does it?

Who would carry the cost burden? The Germans are already fed up over being treated as the milch cow of the EU. Would French soldiers gladly serve under a German supreme commander? Would anyone trust an Italian field marshal? And so on.

And what about usage of a pan-European force and where? Who would hold that power?

As occasional contributor Alexis wisely pointed out "there is no country called Europe"
Pan-European armed forces would be cheaper than what NATO costs us. We already have formed localized multinational task forces (army and navy) which have been commanded by senior officers of various nationalities, including Portuguese, without any problems arising. The only question is: do we see the need and the advantage for such unified forces? If we do it would be easy to implement it, without spending any more money, provided we give up NATO.
Don't be silly, Sertorio. If the US withdraws from NATO, the EU will have to spend more money of their armed forces to make up for the loss of US firepower.
The Imp :D

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Sertorio
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Re: UK Elections 2019

Post by Sertorio » Wed Dec 04, 2019 8:28 am

cassowary wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 7:08 am
Sertorio wrote:
Sun Dec 01, 2019 5:01 am
neverfail wrote:
Sun Dec 01, 2019 3:26 am
Sertorio wrote:
Sun Dec 01, 2019 2:57 am
The UK is a major stumbling block on Europe developping its own defense capabilities.
Of course the fact that the multi national inhabitants of mainland Europe have an endless capacity for squabbles in their own right has nothing to do with Europe's lack of an ex-NATO deference capability, does it?

Who would carry the cost burden? The Germans are already fed up over being treated as the milch cow of the EU. Would French soldiers gladly serve under a German supreme commander? Would anyone trust an Italian field marshal? And so on.

And what about usage of a pan-European force and where? Who would hold that power?

As occasional contributor Alexis wisely pointed out "there is no country called Europe"
Pan-European armed forces would be cheaper than what NATO costs us. We already have formed localized multinational task forces (army and navy) which have been commanded by senior officers of various nationalities, including Portuguese, without any problems arising. The only question is: do we see the need and the advantage for such unified forces? If we do it would be easy to implement it, without spending any more money, provided we give up NATO.
Don't be silly, Sertorio. If the US withdraws from NATO, the EU will have to spend more money of their armed forces to make up for the loss of US firepower.
The EU countries, together, spend more money in defense than Russia (and I think also China). If we spent that money well, we would be at least as capable militarily as those two countries. But 27 different armies, navies and air forces, are not efficient.

Jim the Moron
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Re: UK Elections 2019

Post by Jim the Moron » Wed Dec 04, 2019 9:00 am

I'm curious. Exactly what do all these European entities view as the enemy? Certainly not China. The US? Russia? Portugal?

The one existential threat to the survival of European culture is Islam.

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cassowary
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Re: UK Elections 2019

Post by cassowary » Wed Dec 04, 2019 12:56 pm

Jim the Moron wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 9:00 am
I'm curious. Exactly what do all these European entities view as the enemy? Certainly not China. The US? Russia? Portugal?

The one existential threat to the survival of European culture is Islam.
Russia
The Imp :D

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Sertorio
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Re: UK Elections 2019

Post by Sertorio » Thu Dec 05, 2019 2:04 am

Jim the Moron wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 9:00 am
I'm curious. Exactly what do all these European entities view as the enemy? Certainly not China. The US? Russia? Portugal?

The one existential threat to the survival of European culture is Islam.
Global enemies? Terrorism and meddling in other people's affairs...

Jim the Moron
Posts: 1667
Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2016 9:51 pm

Re: UK Elections 2019

Post by Jim the Moron » Thu Dec 05, 2019 2:27 am

Sertorio wrote:
Thu Dec 05, 2019 2:04 am
Jim the Moron wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 9:00 am
I'm curious. Exactly what do all these European entities view as the enemy? Certainly not China. The US? Russia? Portugal?

The one existential threat to the survival of European culture is Islam.
Global enemies? Terrorism and meddling in other people's affairs...
An then, if true (terrorism, etc), why are EU entities so focused militarily on geopolitical (the Russians are coming!) stuff? Waste of money while turning a blind eye to the real threat . . .

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Sertorio
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Re: UK Elections 2019

Post by Sertorio » Thu Dec 05, 2019 3:48 am

Jim the Moron wrote:
Thu Dec 05, 2019 2:27 am
Sertorio wrote:
Thu Dec 05, 2019 2:04 am
Jim the Moron wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 9:00 am
I'm curious. Exactly what do all these European entities view as the enemy? Certainly not China. The US? Russia? Portugal?

The one existential threat to the survival of European culture is Islam.
Global enemies? Terrorism and meddling in other people's affairs...
An then, if true (terrorism, etc), why are EU entities so focused militarily on geopolitical (the Russians are coming!) stuff? Waste of money while turning a blind eye to the real threat . . .
You are absolutely right. My opinion, too...

neverfail
Posts: 4360
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2016 3:47 am
Location: Singapore

Re: UK Elections 2019

Post by neverfail » Thu Dec 05, 2019 4:02 am

Sertorio wrote:
Thu Dec 05, 2019 3:48 am
Jim the Moron wrote:
Thu Dec 05, 2019 2:27 am
Sertorio wrote:
Thu Dec 05, 2019 2:04 am
Jim the Moron wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 9:00 am
I'm curious. Exactly what do all these European entities view as the enemy? Certainly not China. The US? Russia? Portugal?

The one existential threat to the survival of European culture is Islam.
Global enemies? Terrorism and meddling in other people's affairs...
An then, if true (terrorism, etc), why are EU entities so focused militarily on geopolitical (the Russians are coming!) stuff? Waste of money while turning a blind eye to the real threat . . .
You are absolutely right. My opinion, too...
Spending huge sums of money on military is not going to curb terrorism.

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