Don't tell any of this to Donald Trump!

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Alexis
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Don't tell any of this to Donald Trump!

Post by Alexis » Fri Sep 13, 2019 7:33 am

No, seriously... if he heards of it, the next agreement he will tear up will be the North Atlantic Treaty!

The European Council on Foreign Relations, an EU think tank, has published on September 10th a survey among populations of 14 EU countries regarding their expectations for EU foreign policy.

Among the questions: which attitude should Europeans choose in case of conflict between the USA and Russia.

Like Marcel Dirsus, of Kiel University's Institute for Security Policy, has it "These numbers are remarkable. After decades in which millions of Europeans have been protected from the Soviet Union and Russia by the United States, the vast majority of Europeans would want to stay neutral in a potential conflict between Russia and the United States"

Image

Special mention and the jury's prize for Austria, Greece and especially Slovakia where more people would choose supporting Russia rather than their ally the USA :lol: !

In the most "pro-American" country, that is Poland, no less than 33% of people surveyed would elect to support the USA! A beautiful figure indeed... however still significantly less than the 45% prefering to not take any part :P

As for a conflict between the USA and China, preference for neutrality would be even more pronounced. The Poles remain the most pro-American, but even they are 54% to favor the option "Where is the pop-corn?"



I take this as more and stronger indication that the writing is on the wall as far as NATO is concerned.

No matter the efforts of NATO supporters on both sides of the Atlantic, such reliance of most European countries over the US protector and guarantor cannot persist for much longer. Even if Donald Trump doesn't receive any news of this survey, Americans won't continue indefinitely to station troops in Europe when the relation is so unbalanced.

It would probably be better if leaders on both sides could acknowledge the situation and prepare an orderly end to NATO on friendly terms, rather than the kind of wild dispute with hard feelings that risk to tear the alliance eventually if nothing is done.

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Milo
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Re: Don't tell any of this to Donald Trump!

Post by Milo » Fri Sep 13, 2019 7:59 am

Is there any evidence that this is new though?

My impression has always been that the majority of Europeans only wanted the benefit of American protection and aid, and were not interested in giving back.

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Sertorio
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Re: Don't tell any of this to Donald Trump!

Post by Sertorio » Fri Sep 13, 2019 8:09 am

Milo wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 7:59 am
Is there any evidence that this is new though?

My impression has always been that the majority of Europeans only wanted the benefit of American protection and aid, and were not interested in giving back.
What would we be supposed to give back? Helping the US in its imperialistic ventures in Asia?... Forget it. But we might be willing to help the US in case it was invaded by Canada or Cuba...

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Sertorio
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Re: Don't tell any of this to Donald Trump!

Post by Sertorio » Fri Sep 13, 2019 8:13 am

Alexis wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 7:33 am
No, seriously... if he heards of it, the next agreement he will tear up will be the North Atlantic Treaty!

The European Council on Foreign Relations, an EU think tank, has published on September 10th a survey among populations of 14 EU countries regarding their expectations for EU foreign policy.

Among the questions: which attitude should Europeans choose in case of conflict between the USA and Russia.

Like Marcel Dirsus, of Kiel University's Institute for Security Policy, has it "These numbers are remarkable. After decades in which millions of Europeans have been protected from the Soviet Union and Russia by the United States, the vast majority of Europeans would want to stay neutral in a potential conflict between Russia and the United States"

Image

Special mention and the jury's prize for Austria, Greece and especially Slovakia where more people would choose supporting Russia rather than their ally the USA :lol: !

In the most "pro-American" country, that is Poland, no less than 33% of people surveyed would elect to support the USA! A beautiful figure indeed... however still significantly less than the 45% prefering to not take any part :P

As for a conflict between the USA and China, preference for neutrality would be even more pronounced. The Poles remain the most pro-American, but even they are 54% to favor the option "Where is the pop-corn?"



I take this as more and stronger indication that the writing is on the wall as far as NATO is concerned.

No matter the efforts of NATO supporters on both sides of the Atlantic, such reliance of most European countries over the US protector and guarantor cannot persist for much longer. Even if Donald Trump doesn't receive any news of this survey, Americans won't continue indefinitely to station troops in Europe when the relation is so unbalanced.

It would probably be better if leaders on both sides could acknowledge the situation and prepare an orderly end to NATO on friendly terms, rather than the kind of wild dispute with hard feelings that risk to tear the alliance eventually if nothing is done.
This may prove what I have long believed: that Europeans are sick and tired of being dictated to by the US. We must recover our full independence on what concerns foreign affairs and defense, and we must be free to choose our friends and partners.

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Doc
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Re: Don't tell any of this to Donald Trump!

Post by Doc » Fri Sep 13, 2019 11:13 am

Milo wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 7:59 am
Is there any evidence that this is new though?

My impression has always been that the majority of Europeans only wanted the benefit of American protection and aid, and were not interested in giving back.
That is what a lot of us have been saying for decades. Including Trump if I am not mistaken. It has been almost 75 years now and Europe still cannot defend itself?
“"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros

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Sertorio
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Re: Don't tell any of this to Donald Trump!

Post by Sertorio » Fri Sep 13, 2019 11:50 am

Doc wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 11:13 am
Milo wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 7:59 am
Is there any evidence that this is new though?

My impression has always been that the majority of Europeans only wanted the benefit of American protection and aid, and were not interested in giving back.
That is what a lot of us have been saying for decades. Including Trump if I am not mistaken. It has been almost 75 years now and Europe still cannot defend itself?
We certainly can defend ourselves from any potential enemies. We no longer need the US for that.

neverfail
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Re: Don't tell any of this to Donald Trump!

Post by neverfail » Fri Sep 13, 2019 3:31 pm

Sertorio wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 8:13 am
Alexis wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 7:33 am
No, seriously... if he heards of it, the next agreement he will tear up will be the North Atlantic Treaty!

The European Council on Foreign Relations, an EU think tank, has published on September 10th a survey among populations of 14 EU countries regarding their expectations for EU foreign policy.

Among the questions: which attitude should Europeans choose in case of conflict between the USA and Russia.

Like Marcel Dirsus, of Kiel University's Institute for Security Policy, has it "These numbers are remarkable. After decades in which millions of Europeans have been protected from the Soviet Union and Russia by the United States, the vast majority of Europeans would want to stay neutral in a potential conflict between Russia and the United States"

Image

Special mention and the jury's prize for Austria, Greece and especially Slovakia where more people would choose supporting Russia rather than their ally the USA :lol: !

In the most "pro-American" country, that is Poland, no less than 33% of people surveyed would elect to support the USA! A beautiful figure indeed... however still significantly less than the 45% prefering to not take any part :P

As for a conflict between the USA and China, preference for neutrality would be even more pronounced. The Poles remain the most pro-American, but even they are 54% to favor the option "Where is the pop-corn?"



I take this as more and stronger indication that the writing is on the wall as far as NATO is concerned.

No matter the efforts of NATO supporters on both sides of the Atlantic, such reliance of most European countries over the US protector and guarantor cannot persist for much longer. Even if Donald Trump doesn't receive any news of this survey, Americans won't continue indefinitely to station troops in Europe when the relation is so unbalanced.

It would probably be better if leaders on both sides could acknowledge the situation and prepare an orderly end to NATO on friendly terms, rather than the kind of wild dispute with hard feelings that risk to tear the alliance eventually if nothing is done.
This may prove what I have long believed: that Europeans are sick and tired of being dictated to by the US. We must recover our full independence on what concerns foreign affairs and defense, and we must be free to choose our friends and partners.
An optimistic misreading of those graphs on your part Sertorio.

Even in the case of the 3 you mentioned, where the graphs revealed that more would support Russia: the actual numbers supportive of Russia were very small. In every case without exception the vast majorities of respondents said they would support neither side.

The clear and unequivocal message I get from that is that continental Europeans as a rule are not interested in foreign policy (they seem to be even worse than Yanks that way - and that's saying a lot :) ) but want only continuing PEACE.

Given that past history of the European sub-continent of being in the firing line of all of the major conflicts of the 20th century; the two world wars and the Cold War alike, I cannot say I blame them.

Jim the Moron
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Re: Don't tell any of this to Donald Trump!

Post by Jim the Moron » Fri Sep 13, 2019 4:27 pm

Doc wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 11:13 am
Milo wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 7:59 am
Is there any evidence that this is new though?

My impression has always been that the majority of Europeans only wanted the benefit of American protection and aid, and were not interested in giving back.
That is what a lot of us have been saying for decades. Including Trump if I am not mistaken. It has been almost 75 years now and Europe still cannot defend itself?
Think about it. What has NATO done for the USA except to bleed Americans of resources, while Europeans bask under the umbrella of supposed US-provided security? Get out of there.

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cassowary
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Re: Don't tell any of this to Donald Trump!

Post by cassowary » Fri Sep 13, 2019 6:00 pm

Alexis wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 7:33 am
No, seriously... if he heards of it, the next agreement he will tear up will be the North Atlantic Treaty!

The European Council on Foreign Relations, an EU think tank, has published on September 10th a survey among populations of 14 EU countries regarding their expectations for EU foreign policy.

Among the questions: which attitude should Europeans choose in case of conflict between the USA and Russia.

Like Marcel Dirsus, of Kiel University's Institute for Security Policy, has it "These numbers are remarkable. After decades in which millions of Europeans have been protected from the Soviet Union and Russia by the United States, the vast majority of Europeans would want to stay neutral in a potential conflict between Russia and the United States"

Image

Special mention and the jury's prize for Austria, Greece and especially Slovakia where more people would choose supporting Russia rather than their ally the USA :lol: !

In the most "pro-American" country, that is Poland, no less than 33% of people surveyed would elect to support the USA! A beautiful figure indeed... however still significantly less than the 45% prefering to not take any part :P

As for a conflict between the USA and China, preference for neutrality would be even more pronounced. The Poles remain the most pro-American, but even they are 54% to favor the option "Where is the pop-corn?"



I take this as more and stronger indication that the writing is on the wall as far as NATO is concerned.

No matter the efforts of NATO supporters on both sides of the Atlantic, such reliance of most European countries over the US protector and guarantor cannot persist for much longer. Even if Donald Trump doesn't receive any news of this survey, Americans won't continue indefinitely to station troops in Europe when the relation is so unbalanced.

It would probably be better if leaders on both sides could acknowledge the situation and prepare an orderly end to NATO on friendly terms, rather than the kind of wild dispute with hard feelings that risk to tear the alliance eventually if nothing is done.
This confirms my opinion of Europeans. They only want to take but not give. It must be something to do with their Socialist welfare state which conditioned them into thinking that somehow they will be taken cared of. And they don’t have to contribute. In short, they are bums.
The Imp :D

neverfail
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Re: Don't tell any of this to Donald Trump!

Post by neverfail » Fri Sep 13, 2019 6:40 pm

cassowary wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 6:00 pm

This confirms my opinion of Europeans. They only want to take but not give. It must be something to do with their Socialist welfare state which conditioned them into thinking that somehow they will be taken cared of. And they don’t have to contribute. In short, they are bums.
Please read my published post above Cassowary.

Having endured two world wars and the Cold War in the course of the 20th century and suffered having been brought to ruin on each occasion, I would understand if Europeans now feel "enough is enough: we want no more of it."

"If the Americans and Russians want to fight, let them fight somewhere else. We are sick and tired of being in the firing line every time."

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