China's Thousandfold Guantánamos

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SteveFoerster
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China's Thousandfold Guantánamos

Post by SteveFoerster » Mon Apr 08, 2019 12:06 pm

With China's assault on scores of leading academics and intellectuals, business as usual is no longer possible, writes Magnus Fiskesjö.

https://www.insidehighered.com/views/20 ... cs-opinion
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cassowary
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Re: China's Thousandfold Guantánamos

Post by cassowary » Tue Apr 09, 2019 2:26 am

The Chinese are smart enough to see that Islam is not a religion of peace. It is the last warrior religion and a retrograde force. The Chinese are not blinded by political correctness.

But the west knew that once:
“How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its votaries! Besides the fanatical frenzy, which is as dangerous in a man as hydrophobia in a dog, there is this fearful fatalistic apathy. The effects are apparent in many countries. Improvident habits, slovenly systems of agriculture, sluggish methods of commerce, and insecurity of property exist wherever the followers of the Prophet rule or live. A degraded sensualism deprives this life of its grace and refinement; the next of its dignity and sanctity. The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property – either as a child, a wife, or a concubine – must delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among men. Thousands become the brave and loyal soldiers of the faith: all know how to die but the influence of the religion paralyses the social development of those who follow it. No stronger retrograde force exists in the world. Far from being moribund, Mohammedanism is a militant and proselytizing faith. It has already spread throughout Central Africa, raising fearless warriors at every step; and were it not that Christianity is sheltered in the strong arms of science, the science against which it had vainly struggled, the civilisation of modern Europe might fall, as fell the civilisation of ancient Rome.”
― Winston Churchill, The River War
But what the Chinese are doing is going too far.

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Milo
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Re: China's Thousandfold Guantánamos

Post by Milo » Tue Apr 09, 2019 8:12 am

The problem for me is not that China is cracking down, it's the secretive nature of much of it.
The authorities continued to use “residential surveillance in a designated location”, a form of secret incommunicado detention that allowed the police to hold individuals for up to six months outside the formal detention system, without access to legal counsel of their choice, their families or others, and placed suspects at risk of torture and other ill-treatment. This form of detention was used to curb the activities of human rights defenders, including lawyers, activists and religious practitioners.
https://www.amnesty.org/en/countries/as ... ort-china/

I believe that bad law is better than no law. The idea is that no matter how oppressive a regime if they are following their laws there is some transparency and things can change. There is much less scope for that when there is no process or records. Many other examples of that at the link above.

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Re: China's Thousandfold Guantánamos

Post by SteveFoerster » Tue Apr 09, 2019 8:20 am

I'm no fan of Islam either. But the Chinese annexed their homeland. If the Chinese realised they didn't want Muslims in their country all they had to do was march right back out and say, fine, our bad, you're independent now.

I know how you feel about Muslims, but to describe concentration camps merely as "going to far" is shameful.
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neverfail
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Re: China's Thousandfold Guantánamos

Post by neverfail » Tue Apr 09, 2019 7:21 pm

cassowary wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 2:26 am
The Chinese are smart enough to see that Islam is not a religion of peace. It is the last warrior religion and a retrograde force. The Chinese are not blinded by political correctness.
:o :lol: :| :( :cry:

You disappointment me Cassowary. It would seem that you are not opposed to persecution on religious grounds per se as long as the persecution is visited on some group whose religious convictions you disapprove of, like Muslims.

Not blinded by political correctness? What do you call the mores imposed upon the Chinese public by their ruling CCP? Among their officially defined forms of political incorrectness is belonging to any church or religious assembly NOT controlled by the Chinese Communist party. It is a different matter if a Church is state controlled: such as the "Patriotic Catholic Church" to which the PRC government appoints its own bishops. This Church is not recognised by the Vatican as part of its own communion yet about 90% of all Chinese purporting to be Catholics belong to it. The other 10% loyal to Rome are subjected to unrelenting repression and suppression: just like the independent protestant assemblies that likewise refuse to let the government dictate what they should believe and do.

https://www.politico.com/magazine/story ... ion-221910

(A "patriotic Catholic Church" where the government, not the Vatican, appoints the bishops. It reminds me so much of how King Henry the VIII founded his own schismatic church of convenience so that he could get the divorce from his queen that the Vatican had seen fit to deny him. That fledgling C of E was allegedly a "patriotic" church too and to not belong to it would have been "politically incorrect" at the time, and for long afterwards, as well -recalling the 1704 - 1829 one and a quarter century when the Catholic Church was a proscribed religion under English law.)

Now to get to the point: I see the persecution of Muslim Uighurs in Xinjiang and the repression and persecution of christians elsewhere in China as part of the same pattern. The PRC is ruled by obsessive control freaks. What the CCP cannot control it seeks to destroy.

By the way: are you aware that the PRC constitution guarantees freedom of religion?
Freedom and Regulation. Article 36 of the Chinese constitution says that citizens “enjoy freedom of religious belief.” It bans discrimination based on religion and forbids state organs, public organizations, or individuals from compelling citizens to believe in—or not believe in—any particular faith.

https://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/religion-china
:lol: :( :twisted:

Constitutional law means absolutely nothing in a country where the rulers place themselves above the law.

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cassowary
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Re: China's Thousandfold Guantánamos

Post by cassowary » Wed Apr 10, 2019 12:33 am

SteveFoerster wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 8:20 am
I'm no fan of Islam either. But the Chinese annexed their homeland. If the Chinese realised they didn't want Muslims in their country all they had to do was march right back out and say, fine, our bad, you're independent now.

I know how you feel about Muslims, but to describe concentration camps merely as "going to far" is shameful.
Why? "Going too far", is a sufficient statement of disapproval of what the Chinese are doing to the Muslim Uighurs.

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cassowary
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Re: China's Thousandfold Guantánamos

Post by cassowary » Wed Apr 10, 2019 12:38 am

neverfail wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 7:21 pm


You disappointment me Cassowary. It would seem that you are not opposed to persecution on religious grounds per se as long as the persecution is visited on some group whose religious convictions you disapprove of, like Muslims.
You are wrong. I said that they were going too far, which means I don't condone what the Chinese are doing to the Muslim Uighurs.

What I was trying to say that the Chinese obviously think that Islam is a destructive religion that merits the sternest measures. They don't treat Christians like that - put them in concentration camps to compel them to give up their faith. Christians are treated better than Muslims. There are hundreds or perhaps even thousands of underground Christian churches. The Chinese do not treat them as a dire security threat.

If any group that is treated as bad as the Muslims, it is the Falungong.

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Re: China's Thousandfold Guantánamos

Post by cassowary » Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:53 am

cassowary wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 12:33 am
SteveFoerster wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 8:20 am
I'm no fan of Islam either. But the Chinese annexed their homeland. If the Chinese realised they didn't want Muslims in their country all they had to do was march right back out and say, fine, our bad, you're independent now.

I know how you feel about Muslims, but to describe concentration camps merely as "going to far" is shameful.
Why? "Going too far", is a sufficient statement of disapproval of what the Chinese are doing to the Muslim Uighurs.
I agree with you that they should leave Xinjiang and Tibet. These two were conquered. in China's history, they always expand when they are strong. That is why I have always said the Chinese are a threat.

neverfail
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Re: China's Thousandfold Guantánamos

Post by neverfail » Wed Apr 10, 2019 4:55 pm

cassowary wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 12:38 am
neverfail wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 7:21 pm


You disappointment me Cassowary. It would seem that you are not opposed to persecution on religious grounds per se as long as the persecution is visited on some group whose religious convictions you disapprove of, like Muslims.
You are wrong. I said that they were going too far, which means I don't condone what the Chinese are doing to the Muslim Uighurs.

What I was trying to say that the Chinese obviously think that Islam is a destructive religion that merits the sternest measures.
Do they? Given that Pakistan, China's ally and almost client in south Asia is staunchly Muslim I think not!

https://www.nationalreview.com/2018/08/ ... -response/

I believe rather that it has more to do with Uighur nationalism: their craving for a sovereign state of their own, that Beijing finds so threatening. There are Muslims in China who are not ethnic Uighurs yet I am not aware of the PRC treating these worse than other religious groups - nothing like their treatment of the Uighurs.

Uighur independence is surely a lost cause if ever there was one. There are just 10 to 12 million of them in an imperial state that is home to over 1.2 billion predominantly of Han ethnicity. That is barely a drop of water in the Ocean. Which speaks to be of a paranoid overreaction within the ruling clique in Beijing.
cassowary wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 12:38 am
They don't treat Christians like that - put them in concentration camps to compel them to give up their faith. Christians are treated better than Muslims. There are hundreds or perhaps even thousands of underground Christian churches. The Chinese do not treat them as a dire security threat.

If any group that is treated as bad as the Muslims, it is the Falungong.
Curiosity moved me to find out this about the falun Gong:

https://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/the- ... ty-chinese

They seem a rather harmless lot to me. Further evidence of paranoia, and a resultant propensity to overreact, within the ruling circle in Beijing?

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Re: China's Thousandfold Guantánamos

Post by cassowary » Wed Apr 10, 2019 8:10 pm

neverfail wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 4:55 pm
cassowary wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 12:38 am
neverfail wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 7:21 pm


You disappointment me Cassowary. It would seem that you are not opposed to persecution on religious grounds per se as long as the persecution is visited on some group whose religious convictions you disapprove of, like Muslims.
You are wrong. I said that they were going too far, which means I don't condone what the Chinese are doing to the Muslim Uighurs.

What I was trying to say that the Chinese obviously think that Islam is a destructive religion that merits the sternest measures.
Do they? Given that Pakistan, China's ally and almost client in south Asia is staunchly Muslim I think not!

https://www.nationalreview.com/2018/08/ ... -response/

I believe rather that it has more to do with Uighur nationalism: their craving for a sovereign state of their own, that Beijing finds so threatening. There are Muslims in China who are not ethnic Uighurs yet I am not aware of the PRC treating these worse than other religious groups - nothing like their treatment of the Uighurs.

Uighur independence is surely a lost cause if ever there was one. There are just 10 to 12 million of them in an imperial state that is home to over 1.2 billion predominantly of Han ethnicity. That is barely a drop of water in the Ocean. Which speaks to be of a paranoid overreaction within the ruling clique in Beijing.
cassowary wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 12:38 am
They don't treat Christians like that - put them in concentration camps to compel them to give up their faith. Christians are treated better than Muslims. There are hundreds or perhaps even thousands of underground Christian churches. The Chinese do not treat them as a dire security threat.

If any group that is treated as bad as the Muslims, it is the Falungong.
Curiosity moved me to find out this about the falun Gong:

https://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/the- ... ty-chinese

They seem a rather harmless lot to me. Further evidence of paranoia, and a resultant propensity to overreact, within the ruling circle in Beijing?
Neverfail,

From your link:
Beijing wants those in the periphery of China — Muslims who are not Chinese, Tibetans who follow Buddhism — to be its vassals.
That's precisely what I have been saying. China wants its neighbors to become its vassals as in the days of Old China. That is why China is a threat to the civilized world. After the fall of the Berlin Wall, China was weak and was ripe for a change. Most communist parties were swept away. Bush the Elder missed this historic opportunity.

Now China has become a 800 pound gorilla, soon to dwarf the US in economic and military might. Those in close proximity are in danger, including your Australia.

As for Pakistan, making an alliance with a Muslim power does not mean China does not see Islam as a retrograde, dangerous force. (They are doing it out of expediency as a counter to India. Pakistan can be discarded when they are no longer needed.) The evidence for my statement is to compare China's treatment with other groups. Take the Tibetans for example. Do they put Tibetans in concentration camps and forcing them to denounce their faith? No. But they do that with the Muslim Uighurs. And as I pointed out earlier, the Christians are not treated as badly as the Muslim Uighurs either.

This is the point I am trying to make. The Chinese treat each religions different based on an accurate assessment of that faith and not on political correctness. Leftist professors push the line that all religions are the same. The Chinese know better. Once again, I am not condoning what the Chinese are doing to the Muslim Uighur. My desire is to make the point that they understand Islam correctly, while the Western elite (your politicians and academics) have got it wrong.

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