Jair Bolsonaro declared Brazil's next president

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SteveFoerster
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Re: Jair Bolsonaro declared Brazil's next president

Post by SteveFoerster » Fri Nov 09, 2018 9:27 am

Milo wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 12:23 pm
SteveFoerster wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 8:06 am
Milo wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 8:13 am
You need government in order to have capitalism. Win at all costs and take it all is tribal or at best feudalism.
You say that as if it's indisputable, but a lot of thought has been put into how a market system could function with polycentric dispute resolution.
And I have put a lot of thought into having sex with supermodels.
Come on, you already know that's a lame argument. Everything that happens has to happen for the first time. I'm just imagining you a few centuries ago saying, "A republic? Why, that could never work in this day and age!"
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Doc
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Re: Jair Bolsonaro declared Brazil's next president

Post by Doc » Fri Nov 09, 2018 12:44 pm

cassowary wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 8:08 pm
Doc wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 7:56 pm
cassowary wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 7:51 pm
SteveFoerster wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 8:08 am
Sertorio wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 2:38 am
Doc wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 1:50 pm


Sounds like socialism to me.
You should come and spend some time in Europe, and follow a course on socialism. You might learn a few new things...
The first thing might be that Europe's dominant system is social democracy, not socialism, at least according to the Danish PM: https://www.investors.com/politics/comm ... socialist/
Rasmussen's definition of Socialism is different from Bernie Sanders'. What Rasmussen regards as Socialism is the old definition - state ownership over the assets of production. HItler's version was state control, but not formal ownership, of the assets of production. Nowadays, that is called Fascism. Different people define Socialism differently.

But whether they call it Socialism, Communism, Social Democracy, Democratic Socialism, they are have all roots in Marxist ideology - ie capitalism cannot be trusted, is oppressive, and so needs government interference to achieve equality in outcome. Totally wrong and will lead to policies that will create poverty.
Socialism and Fascism are all about control of the economy by the state Traditional socialism owns the assets directly. Fascism controls them by regulations. Mussolini taught Hitler how to operate as a fascist dictator.
Exactly. I see you have the same ideas. You must have read the same books like "Liberal Fascism", by Jonah Goldberg.
Actually no I haven't I have been studying Fascism since I was in college. My History of WWII Prof was a death camp survivor as a child.
On another matter, can someone help me out on this? What is the difference between Social Democracy and Democratic Socialism?
One starts with an 's" and the other starts with a 'd' :P

According to Wikipedia the former is social intervention into the economy to promote social justice and the latter is the state control of production.

Hitler of course being the most prominent promoter of Social "Justice"
“"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros

neverfail
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Re: Jair Bolsonaro declared Brazil's next president

Post by neverfail » Fri Nov 09, 2018 2:33 pm

Doc wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 12:44 pm

Hitler of course being the most prominent promoter of Social "Justice"
:shock:

Rubbish!

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Sertorio
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Re: Jair Bolsonaro declared Brazil's next president

Post by Sertorio » Fri Nov 09, 2018 4:04 pm

neverfail wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 2:33 pm
Doc wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 12:44 pm

Hitler of course being the most prominent promoter of Social "Justice"
:shock:

Rubbish!
I feel I must partially agree with Doc and Cass. Fascism was not a form of socialism, but it certainly was anti-capitalist...

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Doc
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Re: Jair Bolsonaro declared Brazil's next president

Post by Doc » Fri Nov 09, 2018 4:39 pm

neverfail wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 2:33 pm
Doc wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 12:44 pm

Hitler of course being the most prominent promoter of Social "Justice"
:shock:

Rubbish!
Of course it is not rubbish NF. Hitler used identity politics to make a list of who was 'naughty' and who was 'nice'. Then he killed the 'naughty' ones in the name of "social justice", and rewarded the 'nice' ones on his list. His socialist Nazi party platform clearly SCREAMS "Social Justice" as loudly as anyone ever has.
“"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros

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cassowary
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Re: Jair Bolsonaro declared Brazil's next president

Post by cassowary » Fri Nov 09, 2018 8:49 pm

Doc wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 12:44 pm
cassowary wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 8:08 pm
Doc wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 7:56 pm
cassowary wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 7:51 pm
SteveFoerster wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 8:08 am
Sertorio wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 2:38 am


You should come and spend some time in Europe, and follow a course on socialism. You might learn a few new things...
The first thing might be that Europe's dominant system is social democracy, not socialism, at least according to the Danish PM: https://www.investors.com/politics/comm ... socialist/
Rasmussen's definition of Socialism is different from Bernie Sanders'. What Rasmussen regards as Socialism is the old definition - state ownership over the assets of production. HItler's version was state control, but not formal ownership, of the assets of production. Nowadays, that is called Fascism. Different people define Socialism differently.

But whether they call it Socialism, Communism, Social Democracy, Democratic Socialism, they are have all roots in Marxist ideology - ie capitalism cannot be trusted, is oppressive, and so needs government interference to achieve equality in outcome. Totally wrong and will lead to policies that will create poverty.
Socialism and Fascism are all about control of the economy by the state Traditional socialism owns the assets directly. Fascism controls them by regulations. Mussolini taught Hitler how to operate as a fascist dictator.
Exactly. I see you have the same ideas. You must have read the same books like "Liberal Fascism", by Jonah Goldberg.
Actually no I haven't I have been studying Fascism since I was in college. My History of WWII Prof was a death camp survivor as a child.
On another matter, can someone help me out on this? What is the difference between Social Democracy and Democratic Socialism?
One starts with an 's" and the other starts with a 'd' :P

According to Wikipedia the former is social intervention into the economy to promote social justice and the latter is the state control of production.

Hitler of course being the most prominent promoter of Social "Justice"
Yes, his version of Socialism was National Socialism. He left the assets of production ie farms, factories, businesses etc nominally in private hands but told them what to do. Mussolini did the same thing.

neverfail
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Re: Jair Bolsonaro declared Brazil's next president

Post by neverfail » Sat Nov 10, 2018 2:01 pm

Doc wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 4:39 pm
neverfail wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 2:33 pm
Doc wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 12:44 pm

Hitler of course being the most prominent promoter of Social "Justice"
:shock:

Rubbish!
Of course it is not rubbish NF. Hitler used identity politics to make a list of who was 'naughty' and who was 'nice'. Then he killed the 'naughty' ones in the name of "social justice", and rewarded the 'nice' ones on his list. His socialist Nazi party platform clearly SCREAMS "Social Justice" as loudly as anyone ever has.
That view distorts what I meant by social justice. A regime as lethally discriminatory as the Nazi one was never designed to achieve social justice as I would define it.

neverfail
Posts: 2579
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2016 3:47 am

Re: Jair Bolsonaro declared Brazil's next president

Post by neverfail » Sat Nov 10, 2018 2:05 pm

cassowary wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 8:49 pm
Doc wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 12:44 pm

Hitler of course being the most prominent promoter of Social "Justice"
Yes, his version of Socialism was National Socialism. He left the assets of production ie farms, factories, businesses etc nominally in private hands but told them what to do. Mussolini did the same thing.
The problem here being that their system was authoritarian one party with no checks and balances on abuse of power by the ruling party.

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SteveFoerster
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Re: Jair Bolsonaro declared Brazil's next president

Post by SteveFoerster » Sat Nov 10, 2018 8:19 pm

neverfail wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 2:01 pm
Doc wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 4:39 pm
neverfail wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 2:33 pm
Doc wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 12:44 pm

Hitler of course being the most prominent promoter of Social "Justice"
:shock:

Rubbish!
Of course it is not rubbish NF. Hitler used identity politics to make a list of who was 'naughty' and who was 'nice'. Then he killed the 'naughty' ones in the name of "social justice", and rewarded the 'nice' ones on his list. His socialist Nazi party platform clearly SCREAMS "Social Justice" as loudly as anyone ever has.
That view distorts what I meant by social justice. A regime as lethally discriminatory as the Nazi one was never designed to achieve social justice as I would define it.
Agreed -- I may not agree with everything you've ever written, but the idea that you and Hitler share broad societal objectives is pretty laughable.

Still, I remember the first course in economics I ever took. The subject of fairness came up, and our instructor said that "fair" means "I like it" and "unfair" means "I don't like it".

The problem is that the same is true for "social justice". It really means whatever the speaker intends, but in that it ends up meaning nothing at all, other than broadly being used as a term meaning "anything leftists like".
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Doc
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Re: Jair Bolsonaro declared Brazil's next president

Post by Doc » Sat Nov 10, 2018 11:46 pm

neverfail wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 2:01 pm
Doc wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 4:39 pm
neverfail wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 2:33 pm
Doc wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 12:44 pm

Hitler of course being the most prominent promoter of Social "Justice"
:shock:

Rubbish!
Of course it is not rubbish NF. Hitler used identity politics to make a list of who was 'naughty' and who was 'nice'. Then he killed the 'naughty' ones in the name of "social justice", and rewarded the 'nice' ones on his list. His socialist Nazi party platform clearly SCREAMS "Social Justice" as loudly as anyone ever has.
That view distorts what I meant by social justice. A regime as lethally discriminatory as the Nazi one was never designed to achieve social justice as I would define it.
In what way? The German people clearly felt themselves victims throughout the 1920's into the 1930's Hitler promised them social 'justice' in his Nazi party platform and largely delivered what he promised, and unfortunately then a lot more. Much the way Social Justice Warriors LITERALLY applaud Hitler's promises today.

“"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros

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