A dithering Obama emboldened China

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neverfail
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A dithering Obama emboldened China

Post by neverfail » Mon Oct 08, 2018 3:34 am

http://www.atimes.com/a-dithering-obama ... ned-china/

As any regular on this website knows, I have been rather sparing in my criticism of Obama's presidency and (perhaps) at times unduly critical of Trump's. But after reading this article I can see how Obama's negligence re. developments in the Asia-Pacific region has enticed China to move into the power vacuum thus created.

Trump seems to have inherited a poisoned chalice from his predecessor in office.

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Sertorio
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Re: A dithering Obama emboldened China

Post by Sertorio » Mon Oct 08, 2018 3:56 am

neverfail wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 3:34 am
http://www.atimes.com/a-dithering-obama ... ned-china/

As any regular on this website knows, I have been rather sparing in my criticism of Obama's presidency and (perhaps) at times unduly critical of Trump's. But after reading this article I can see how Obama's negligence re. developments in the Asia-Pacific region has enticed China to move into the power vacuum thus created.

Trump seems to have inherited a poisoned chalice from his predecessor in office.
What right does the US have of trying to "contain" China in Asia? China has more right to influence the course of events in East Asia than the US. As long as China does not violate the Charter of the UN it may do whatever it wants, and it's up to other Asian nations to decide what type or relations they want to have with China. Once more the US is trying to play a role nobody assigned to it, that of a global policeman.

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cassowary
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Re: A dithering Obama emboldened China

Post by cassowary » Mon Oct 08, 2018 6:19 am

neverfail wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 3:34 am
http://www.atimes.com/a-dithering-obama ... ned-china/

As any regular on this website knows, I have been rather sparing in my criticism of Obama's presidency and (perhaps) at times unduly critical of Trump's. But after reading this article I can see how Obama's negligence re. developments in the Asia-Pacific region has enticed China to move into the power vacuum thus created.

Trump seems to have inherited a poisoned chalice from his predecessor in office.
Xi believed that oBUMa's weakness was America's weakness. He was convinced that America is declining and will withdraw from Asia. Xi dreams of a world dominated by China, starting with East Asia. Trump is a rude awakening.

The American eagle has risen from the ashes. The economy is rejuvenated and the military is being rebuilt. What's more. Trump is hitting on China's dependency on trade.Trump may yet save Asia (including Australia) from becoming vassals of China. That's why Xi is dreaming of - to return to the time when its neighbors were its vassals.

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Sertorio
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Re: A dithering Obama emboldened China

Post by Sertorio » Mon Oct 08, 2018 8:30 am

cassowary wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 6:19 am
neverfail wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 3:34 am
http://www.atimes.com/a-dithering-obama ... ned-china/

As any regular on this website knows, I have been rather sparing in my criticism of Obama's presidency and (perhaps) at times unduly critical of Trump's. But after reading this article I can see how Obama's negligence re. developments in the Asia-Pacific region has enticed China to move into the power vacuum thus created.

Trump seems to have inherited a poisoned chalice from his predecessor in office.
Xi believed that oBUMa's weakness was America's weakness. He was convinced that America is declining and will withdraw from Asia. Xi dreams of a world dominated by China, starting with East Asia. Trump is a rude awakening.

The American eagle has risen from the ashes. The economy is rejuvenated and the military is being rebuilt. What's more. Trump is hitting on China's dependency on trade.Trump may yet save Asia (including Australia) from becoming vassals of China. That's why Xi is dreaming of - to return to the time when its neighbors were its vassals.
I didn't realize you were a privileged confident of Xi, in order to know so well what Xi's dreams are... You create a fantasy about China, so that you can justify Trump's imperialistic impulses, but reality is quite different. The US is the only country which strives to create a following of vassals. China just minds its own business...

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SteveFoerster
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Re: A dithering Obama emboldened China

Post by SteveFoerster » Mon Oct 08, 2018 8:30 am

Sertorio wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 3:56 am
What right does the US have of trying to "contain" China in Asia? China has more right to influence the course of events in East Asia than the US. As long as China does not violate the Charter of the UN it may do whatever it wants, and it's up to other Asian nations to decide what type or relations they want to have with China. Once more the US is trying to play a role nobody assigned to it, that of a global policeman.
The Chinese government has exactly as much right as the U.S. to influence the course of events in East Asia: zero. If it's up to other Asian nations to decide what type of relations they want to have with China, then it's up to them to decide what type of relations they want to have with the U.S. If anyone in the region has cause to hate the U.S. it's the Vietnamese, yet even they see cooperation with the U.S. as a hedge against Chinese extraterritorial ambitions.

(Now, that doesn't mean I think spending blood and treasure to contain Xi's ambitions is in the interest of everyday Americans, but that's another matter.)
Writer, technologist, educator, gadfly.
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Sertorio
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Re: A dithering Obama emboldened China

Post by Sertorio » Mon Oct 08, 2018 8:36 am

SteveFoerster wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 8:30 am
Sertorio wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 3:56 am
What right does the US have of trying to "contain" China in Asia? China has more right to influence the course of events in East Asia than the US. As long as China does not violate the Charter of the UN it may do whatever it wants, and it's up to other Asian nations to decide what type or relations they want to have with China. Once more the US is trying to play a role nobody assigned to it, that of a global policeman.
The Chinese government has exactly as much right as the U.S. to influence the course of events in East Asia: zero. If it's up to other Asian nations to decide what type of relations they want to have with China, then it's up to them to decide what type of relations they want to have with the U.S. If anyone in the region has cause to hate the U.S. it's the Vietnamese, yet even they see cooperation with the U.S. as a hedge against Chinese extraterritorial ambitions.

(Now, that doesn't mean I think spending blood and treasure to contain Xi's ambitions is in the interest of everyday Americans, but that's another matter.)
What Chinese extraterritorial ambitions?... With the exception of Djibouti, where do the Chinese have foreign military bases? Which countries have the Chinese threatened to bomb? Which countries have been the target of Chinese economic sanctions or boycots?...

neverfail
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Re: A dithering Obama emboldened China

Post by neverfail » Mon Oct 08, 2018 3:54 pm

SteveFoerster wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 8:30 am

(Now, that doesn't mean I think spending blood and treasure to contain Xi's ambitions is in the interest of everyday Americans, but that's another matter.)
Unfortunately, Xi might one day conclude that it is worth expending Chinese blood and treasure to fulfil HIS ambitions for his country. What then?

The United States failed in Vietnam in no small measure because President Lyndon Baines Johnson failed to put a plausible case to the American public as to why so much US blood and treasure should be expended on "saving" a formerly obscure half-country of no obvious relevance to the United States. Americans, like other english language Western peoples do not follow their political leaders blindly.

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Sertorio
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Re: A dithering Obama emboldened China

Post by Sertorio » Tue Oct 09, 2018 3:13 am

neverfail wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 3:54 pm
SteveFoerster wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 8:30 am

(Now, that doesn't mean I think spending blood and treasure to contain Xi's ambitions is in the interest of everyday Americans, but that's another matter.)
Unfortunately, Xi might one day conclude that it is worth expending Chinese blood and treasure to fulfil HIS ambitions for his country. What then?

The United States failed in Vietnam in no small measure because President Lyndon Baines Johnson failed to put a plausible case to the American public as to why so much US blood and treasure should be expended on "saving" a formerly obscure half-country of no obvious relevance to the United States. Americans, like other english language Western peoples do not follow their political leaders blindly.
What ambitions does Xi have for his country? And why should the US interfere?...

neverfail
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Re: A dithering Obama emboldened China

Post by neverfail » Tue Oct 09, 2018 3:13 am

cassowary wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 6:19 am

Xi believed that oBUMa's weakness was America's weakness. He was convinced that America is declining and will withdraw from Asia.


Probably true. Obama came across to me as a rather nice guy yet he never seemed to command respect. I just hope that Trump understands the need for a US President to command respect at home and abroad.
cassowary wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 6:19 am
Trump is a rude awakening.
Or just comically rude?

cassowary wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 6:19 am
The American eagle has risen from the ashes.
melodramatic!
cassowary wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 6:19 am
The economy is rejuvenated and the military is being rebuilt.


Do not take their economy for granted Cass. The home of the 1930's global Great depression and of the GFC of more recent memory might, true to form, still bring it all crashing down again.
cassowary wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 6:19 am
What's more. Trump is hitting on China's dependency on trade.
You are aware, I hope, that China trades a lot more with Asia these days than with the US?
cassowary wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 6:19 am
Trump may yet save Asia (including Australia) from becoming vassals of China. T
We have one of the highest pro-rata of trade dependency on continuing PRC goodwill of any country in the World and thus far Beijing has not turned us into their vassal. Indeed, we normally get a better deal in trade from the PRC than we get from the USA.

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cassowary
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Re: A dithering Obama emboldened China

Post by cassowary » Tue Oct 09, 2018 7:49 am

neverfail wrote:
Tue Oct 09, 2018 3:13 am

cassowary wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 6:19 am
What's more. Trump is hitting on China's dependency on trade.
You are aware, I hope, that China trades a lot more with Asia these days than with the US?
I am fully aware of that. We will be collateral damage.
cassowary wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 6:19 am
Trump may yet save Asia (including Australia) from becoming vassals of China. T
We have one of the highest pro-rata of trade dependency on continuing PRC goodwill of any country in the World and thus far Beijing has not turned us into their vassal. Indeed, we normally get a better deal in trade from the PRC than we get from the USA.
Singapore depends on trade even more than Australia does. We will be hurt. But I think long term. Better to suffer for a few years rather than for China to grow stronger and end up controlling us. Maybe the Xi regime can be brought down and replaced by something better. Then we don't have to be vassals of a brutal Chinese regime.

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