Britain leaves the EU!

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cassowary
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Britain leaves the EU!

Post by cassowary » Sat Feb 01, 2020 12:45 am

My first thought is that the EU is divided between net payers and net takers into the European treasury - just individuals of any society. The net payers are those who contribute more money than take back in benefits.

The UK was a net payer in the EU. In fact, it was the second largest net payer. That means the EU either has to cut spending or extract more money from the other net payers, the largest of which are now Germany and France.
EU.png
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The pound rises as the UK bids goodbye to the EU

Maybe that is why the currency market is cheering Brexit.
The Imp :D

neverfail
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Re: Britain leaves the EU!

Post by neverfail » Sat Feb 01, 2020 1:43 am

You make a good point there Cass about lesser income going to the EU budget with Britain's departure.

Do you see the pattern of EU spending though? Virtually all of the recipient nations are former captives of the Soviet Union; impoverished by those decades of penury. These need a helping hand in order to work up their living standards to approximate those of the richer members who, without a single exception, were blessed to be on the "upmarket" side of the iron curtain when WW2 ended. To do otherwise would be to penalize the recipients for historically rotten luck they had no control over. Conversely, not to ask the richer members to pay would be to reward them unduly for the random good fortune of not having been forced into the Soviet bloc.

(p.s. the issue that fired up the BREXIT referendum vote was apparently not the fiscal cost of membership but immigration - a sense of loss of control over their own borders. Deep down England really wants to be Australia ;) )

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cassowary
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Re: Britain leaves the EU!

Post by cassowary » Sat Feb 01, 2020 2:09 am

neverfail wrote:
Sat Feb 01, 2020 1:43 am
You make a good point there Cass about lesser income going to the EU budget with Britain's departure.

Do you see the pattern of EU spending though? Virtually all of the recipient nations are former captives of the Soviet Union; impoverished by those decades of penury. These need a helping hand in order to work up their living standards to approximate those of the richer members who, without a single exception, were blessed to be on the "upmarket" side of the iron curtain when WW2 ended. To do otherwise would be to penalize the recipients for historically rotten luck they had no control over. Conversely, not to ask the richer members to pay would be to reward them unduly for the random good fortune of not having been forced into the Soviet bloc.

(p.s. the issue that fired up the BREXIT referendum vote was apparently not the fiscal cost of membership but immigration - a sense of loss of control over their own borders. Deep down England really wants to be Australia ;) )
I agree that the richer countries should help the poorer E Europeans. But what about the others like Greece? What excuse do they have?
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Sertorio
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Re: Britain leaves the EU!

Post by Sertorio » Sat Feb 01, 2020 4:28 am

neverfail wrote:
Sat Feb 01, 2020 1:43 am
You make a good point there Cass about lesser income going to the EU budget with Britain's departure.

Do you see the pattern of EU spending though? Virtually all of the recipient nations are former captives of the Soviet Union; impoverished by those decades of penury. These need a helping hand in order to work up their living standards to approximate those of the richer members who, without a single exception, were blessed to be on the "upmarket" side of the iron curtain when WW2 ended. To do otherwise would be to penalize the recipients for historically rotten luck they had no control over. Conversely, not to ask the richer members to pay would be to reward them unduly for the random good fortune of not having been forced into the Soviet bloc.

(p.s. the issue that fired up the BREXIT referendum vote was apparently not the fiscal cost of membership but immigration - a sense of loss of control over their own borders. Deep down England really wants to be Australia ;) )
What the richer European countries gained by the removal of tariffs and the implementation of a unified market more than compensates what they contribute to assist the poorer countries. Without the EU, Germany, The Netherlands and Sweden, among others, would be less prosperous, so they have no reason to complain. Most Europeans understand this and only a minority insists on complaining about having to "support" the poorer nations. My guess is that Europeans as a whole are becoming increasingly comfortable with eachother. Xenophobia may still be a reality in respect of immigrants from places like the ME and Africa, but only the UK complained about immigrants from Europe (mostly those from Poland). Now that the UK is out, a sense of an European identity will become stronger as time goes by. I am an optimist although I wish things would move faster.

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cassowary
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Re: Britain leaves the EU!

Post by cassowary » Sat Feb 01, 2020 7:20 am

Sertorio wrote:
Sat Feb 01, 2020 4:28 am
neverfail wrote:
Sat Feb 01, 2020 1:43 am
You make a good point there Cass about lesser income going to the EU budget with Britain's departure.

Do you see the pattern of EU spending though? Virtually all of the recipient nations are former captives of the Soviet Union; impoverished by those decades of penury. These need a helping hand in order to work up their living standards to approximate those of the richer members who, without a single exception, were blessed to be on the "upmarket" side of the iron curtain when WW2 ended. To do otherwise would be to penalize the recipients for historically rotten luck they had no control over. Conversely, not to ask the richer members to pay would be to reward them unduly for the random good fortune of not having been forced into the Soviet bloc.

(p.s. the issue that fired up the BREXIT referendum vote was apparently not the fiscal cost of membership but immigration - a sense of loss of control over their own borders. Deep down England really wants to be Australia ;) )
What the richer European countries gained by the removal of tariffs and the implementation of a unified market more than compensates what they contribute to assist the poorer countries. Without the EU, Germany, The Netherlands and Sweden, among others, would be less prosperous, so they have no reason to complain. Most Europeans understand this and only a minority insists on complaining about having to "support" the poorer nations. My guess is that Europeans as a whole are becoming increasingly comfortable with eachother. Xenophobia may still be a reality in respect of immigrants from places like the ME and Africa, but only the UK complained about immigrants from Europe (mostly those from Poland). Now that the UK is out, a sense of an European identity will become stronger as time goes by. I am an optimist although I wish things would move faster.
How can the Germans and other net contributors know that the lower tariffs compensate for their net contributions?
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neverfail
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Re: Britain leaves the EU!

Post by neverfail » Sat Feb 01, 2020 7:38 am

Sertorio wrote:
Sat Feb 01, 2020 4:28 am
neverfail wrote:
Sat Feb 01, 2020 1:43 am
You make a good point there Cass about lesser income going to the EU budget with Britain's departure.

Do you see the pattern of EU spending though? Virtually all of the recipient nations are former captives of the Soviet Union; impoverished by those decades of penury. These need a helping hand in order to work up their living standards to approximate those of the richer members who, without a single exception, were blessed to be on the "upmarket" side of the iron curtain when WW2 ended. To do otherwise would be to penalize the recipients for historically rotten luck they had no control over. Conversely, not to ask the richer members to pay would be to reward them unduly for the random good fortune of not having been forced into the Soviet bloc.

(p.s. the issue that fired up the BREXIT referendum vote was apparently not the fiscal cost of membership but immigration - a sense of loss of control over their own borders. Deep down England really wants to be Australia ;) )
What the richer European countries gained by the removal of tariffs and the implementation of a unified market more than compensates what they contribute to assist the poorer countries. Without the EU, Germany, The Netherlands and Sweden, among others, would be less prosperous, so they have no reason to complain. Most Europeans understand this and only a minority insists on complaining about having to "support" the poorer nations. My guess is that Europeans as a whole are becoming increasingly comfortable with each other. Xenophobia may still be a reality in respect of immigrants from places like the ME and Africa, but only the UK complained about immigrants from Europe (mostly those from Poland). Now that the UK is out, a sense of an European identity will become stronger as time goes by. I am an optimist although I wish things would move faster.
( :roll: sigh!) I recall how back in 1989 with the Berlin wall down and the other iron curtain barriers falling I was at a party conversing with a Belgian immigrant. Coming as he did from a free country in western Europe I had presumed that like me he would be delighted by news of the end of the Cold War and the opening up of the Soviet bloc. He was anything but.

This immigrant foresaw western Europe being overrun by pauper economic refugees from the east: placing downward pressures on western European wages and working conditions. His words uttered then have turned out to have been prophetic since.

I can see that your country Portugal has NOT been invaded by economic refugees from this source: probably because it is still at the lower end of the western Europe average real income scale. Enjoy your innocent optimism while it lasts Sertorio.
.....................................................................................................................................
A glance at just WHO the richest countries in the EU mainly trade with is quite revealing:

Germany
- export partners: US 8.8%, France 8.2%, China 6.8%, Netherlands 6.7%, UK 6.6%, Italy 5.1%, Austria 4.9%, Poland 4.7%, Switzerland 4.2% Poland is the only significant export outlet among the poorer EU members

Sweden
- export partners: Germany 11%, Norway 10.2%, Finland 6.9%, US 6.9%, Denmark 6.9%, UK 6.2%, Netherlands 5.5%, China 4.5%, Belgium 4.4%, France 4.2% (2017)

Netherlands - export partners. Germany 24.2%, Belgium 10.7%, UK 8.8%, France 8.8%, Italy 4.2% (2017)

France - export partners. Germany 14.8%, Spain 7.7%, Italy 7.5%, US 7.2%, Belgium 7%, UK 6.7%

Italy - export partners: Germany 12.5%, France 10.3%, US 9%, Spain 5.2%, UK 5.2%, Switzerland 4.6% (2017)


The pattern is consistent throughout. The rich member states of the EU remain rich because they mainly trade with one another. Exports to the net recipients of EU subsidies (the piss-ants?: the hangers on?) would not even constitute a thin layer of icing on top of the cake - and that comes at a cost.

So there you have it. A handful of the wealthier EU states are doing all of the economic heavy lifting while the others get a free ride on their coattails. :)

Britain (and some others) have good cause to complain.

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Sertorio
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Re: Britain leaves the EU!

Post by Sertorio » Sat Feb 01, 2020 7:51 am

neverfail wrote:
Sat Feb 01, 2020 7:38 am
Sertorio wrote:
Sat Feb 01, 2020 4:28 am
neverfail wrote:
Sat Feb 01, 2020 1:43 am
You make a good point there Cass about lesser income going to the EU budget with Britain's departure.

Do you see the pattern of EU spending though? Virtually all of the recipient nations are former captives of the Soviet Union; impoverished by those decades of penury. These need a helping hand in order to work up their living standards to approximate those of the richer members who, without a single exception, were blessed to be on the "upmarket" side of the iron curtain when WW2 ended. To do otherwise would be to penalize the recipients for historically rotten luck they had no control over. Conversely, not to ask the richer members to pay would be to reward them unduly for the random good fortune of not having been forced into the Soviet bloc.

(p.s. the issue that fired up the BREXIT referendum vote was apparently not the fiscal cost of membership but immigration - a sense of loss of control over their own borders. Deep down England really wants to be Australia ;) )
What the richer European countries gained by the removal of tariffs and the implementation of a unified market more than compensates what they contribute to assist the poorer countries. Without the EU, Germany, The Netherlands and Sweden, among others, would be less prosperous, so they have no reason to complain. Most Europeans understand this and only a minority insists on complaining about having to "support" the poorer nations. My guess is that Europeans as a whole are becoming increasingly comfortable with each other. Xenophobia may still be a reality in respect of immigrants from places like the ME and Africa, but only the UK complained about immigrants from Europe (mostly those from Poland). Now that the UK is out, a sense of an European identity will become stronger as time goes by. I am an optimist although I wish things would move faster.
( :roll: sigh!) I recall how back in 1989 with the Berlin wall down and the other iron curtain barriers falling I was at a party conversing with a Belgian immigrant. Coming as he did from a free country in western Europe I had presumed that like me he would be delighted by news of the end of the Cold War and the opening up of the Soviet bloc. He was anything but.

This immigrant foresaw western Europe being overrun by pauper economic refugees from the east: placing downward pressures on western European wages and working conditions. His words uttered then have turned out to have been prophetic since.

I can see that your country Portugal has NOT been invaded by economic refugees from this source: probably because it is still at the lower end of the western Europe average real income scale. Enjoy your innocent optimism while it lasts Sertorio.
.....................................................................................................................................
A glance at just WHO the richest countries in the EU mainly trade with is quite revealing:

Germany
- export partners: US 8.8%, France 8.2%, China 6.8%, Netherlands 6.7%, UK 6.6%, Italy 5.1%, Austria 4.9%, Poland 4.7%, Switzerland 4.2% Poland is the only significant export outlet among the poorer EU members

Sweden
- export partners: Germany 11%, Norway 10.2%, Finland 6.9%, US 6.9%, Denmark 6.9%, UK 6.2%, Netherlands 5.5%, China 4.5%, Belgium 4.4%, France 4.2% (2017)

Netherlands - export partners. Germany 24.2%, Belgium 10.7%, UK 8.8%, France 8.8%, Italy 4.2% (2017)

France - export partners. Germany 14.8%, Spain 7.7%, Italy 7.5%, US 7.2%, Belgium 7%, UK 6.7%

Italy - export partners: Germany 12.5%, France 10.3%, US 9%, Spain 5.2%, UK 5.2%, Switzerland 4.6% (2017)


The pattern is consistent throughout. The rich member states of the EU remain rich because they mainly trade with one another. Exports to the net recipients of EU subsidies (the piss-ants?: the hangers on?) would not even constitute a thin layer of icing on top of the cake - and that comes at a cost.

So there you have it. A handful of the wealthier EU states are doing all of the economic heavy lifting while the others get a free ride on their coattails. :)

Britain (and some others) have good cause to complain.
You are a victim of preconceived ideas.

If you would add all the poorer countries in Europe you would see that they would constitute a significant market for the richer countries. Individually they don't, but together they definitely do. After all they have over 200 million consumers.

Portugal received a significant (for us) number of immigrants from Romania and the Ukraine (about 25% of the total number of immigrants). And they integrated beautifully.

Portugal doesn't get a free ride on anybody's coattails. Our foreign trade is balanced and net receipts from the EU represent less than 1.5% of our GDP.

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Milo
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Re: Britain leaves the EU!

Post by Milo » Sat Feb 01, 2020 10:24 am

Oft overlooked in this discussion is the EU penchant for the more overbearing system of civil law, as opposed to the common law of the UK. I feel the UK will have more individual liberty out from under the EU's attempts to impose their inquisitional system.

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Sertorio
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Re: Britain leaves the EU!

Post by Sertorio » Sat Feb 01, 2020 1:48 pm

Milo wrote:
Sat Feb 01, 2020 10:24 am
Oft overlooked in this discussion is the EU penchant for the more overbearing system of civil law, as opposed to the common law of the UK. I feel the UK will have more individual liberty out from under the EU's attempts to impose their inquisitional system.
I wonder whether Julian Assange would think so...

neverfail
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Re: Britain leaves the EU!

Post by neverfail » Sat Feb 01, 2020 2:38 pm

Sertorio wrote:
Sat Feb 01, 2020 7:51 am

You are a victim of preconceived ideas.

If you would add all the poorer countries in Europe you would see that they would constitute a significant market for the richer countries. Individually they don't, but together they definitely do. After all they have over 200 million consumers.
The former Soviet satellite states suffered over 4 decades of Communist command economy mismanagement coming in the wake of having their territory fought over by Germans and Russians during the Second World War. That's around half a century of wasted years whose consequences that they have to overcome. It cannot happen overnight. Good to see that the richer EU members are able to help. After all, these same "rich" countries (Sweden excepted) all received American Marshall Plan loans to help them back on their feet after WW2 so they are now passing on that favour to others.

(Then there are one or two - as Cassowary is wont to point out with relish - like Greece that are NOT ex-Soviet but whose recent decade of misery under EU debt recovery and economic restructuring plans was self-inflicted - being entirely the consequence of bad government at home. Even these are a net drain on EU resources.

Having said that, these countries when properly developed might, as you say, collectively constitute a good market for the exportable goods and services of the rich few: but meanwhile these newcomers are soaking up a lot of funds from the EU budget (out of the pockets of taxpayers in these "rich" states) and meantime there are market opportunities both within the EU (the rich states trading with one another) and abroad (i.e The Peoples Republic of China; India; the USA) that need no such ongoing investments of EU funds.
Sertorio wrote:
Sat Feb 01, 2020 7:51 am
Portugal received a significant (for us) number of immigrants from Romania and the Ukraine (about 25% of the total number of immigrants). And they integrated beautifully.
It can't be anything like the multi-ethnic deluge the more affluent northern states have had to take in Sertorio. And that is the point of Britain's defection. It is the sense of loss of control over their international borders and over their destiny that moved the Brits to opt out of the EU. That and the efforts of overbearing Continental bureaucrats belonging to the EU commission to impose social engineering rules on the UK over which British voters have no say.
Sertorio wrote:
Sat Feb 01, 2020 7:51 am
Portugal doesn't get a free ride on anybody's coattails. Our foreign trade is balanced and net receipts from the EU represent less than 1.5% of our GDP.
It is still (unlike even Ireland) yet to transform itself from a net recipient of EU subsidies into a net contributor to the EU budget.

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