How did a nice place like Mexico become a failed state?

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neverfail
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Re: How did a nice place like Mexico become a failed state?

Post by neverfail » Mon Nov 04, 2019 11:59 am

cassowary wrote:
Mon Nov 04, 2019 6:02 am
neverfail wrote:
Sun Nov 03, 2019 10:23 pm
I warmly welcome your post (below) Cass.
.
.
.
Having said that I would still suggest that there are plenty of social injustices in the world that blight lives inflicted on people by forces beyond their control that require a collective remedy. Please do not presume that all movements to mitigate and remedy injustice necessarily constitute "socialism".
Yes. The truth lies between "it's all my fault" to "its all the fault of a unjust society."
You clearly are a stranger to social injustice and the debilitating effect it can have on your life, Cass. Enjoy your innocence!

neverfail
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Re: How did a nice place like Mexico become a failed state?

Post by neverfail » Mon Nov 04, 2019 12:04 pm

Sertorio wrote:
Mon Nov 04, 2019 3:22 am
Religion is becoming increasingly irrelevant because an increasing number of people see religions as fantasies,...
Their loss Sertorio - and yours!
Sertorio wrote:
Mon Nov 04, 2019 3:22 am
...not because people are becoming more materialistic. In fact, many very materialistic people consider themselves as being very religious...
A true and accurate observation Sertorio - but so what?

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Sertorio
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Re: How did a nice place like Mexico become a failed state?

Post by Sertorio » Mon Nov 04, 2019 12:16 pm

neverfail wrote:
Mon Nov 04, 2019 12:04 pm
Sertorio wrote:
Mon Nov 04, 2019 3:22 am
Religion is becoming increasingly irrelevant because an increasing number of people see religions as fantasies,...
Their loss Sertorio - and yours!
Sertorio wrote:
Mon Nov 04, 2019 3:22 am
...not because people are becoming more materialistic. In fact, many very materialistic people consider themselves as being very religious...
A true and accurate observation Sertorio - but so what?
So what? Non-religious people are not more materialistic than religious ones...Nor more selfish...Nor more evil... etc...

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cassowary
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Re: How did a nice place like Mexico become a failed state?

Post by cassowary » Mon Nov 04, 2019 6:48 pm

neverfail wrote:
Mon Nov 04, 2019 11:59 am
cassowary wrote:
Mon Nov 04, 2019 6:02 am
neverfail wrote:
Sun Nov 03, 2019 10:23 pm
I warmly welcome your post (below) Cass.
.
.
.
Having said that I would still suggest that there are plenty of social injustices in the world that blight lives inflicted on people by forces beyond their control that require a collective remedy. Please do not presume that all movements to mitigate and remedy injustice necessarily constitute "socialism".
Yes. The truth lies between "it's all my fault" to "its all the fault of a unjust society."
You clearly are a stranger to social injustice and the debilitating effect it can have on your life, Cass. Enjoy your innocence!
You clearly reject the notion of personal responsibility. One of those so steeped in Marxist dogma that its not the fault of the individual but entirely the fault of an unjust society.

Its like this.

Government can build a school. But it is up to the kid to study. It takes collective action - paying taxes to fund the school. But it takes individual effort to study. A well educated person will go on to earn high wages. If someone does poorly in school because of disinterest, should be blame an unjust society or himself?
The Imp :D

neverfail
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Re: How did a nice place like Mexico become a failed state?

Post by neverfail » Mon Nov 04, 2019 9:10 pm

cassowary wrote:
Mon Nov 04, 2019 6:48 pm

You clearly reject the notion of personal responsibility. One of those so steeped in Marxist dogma that its not the fault of the individual but entirely the fault of an unjust society.

I clearly do no such thing CASSOWARY. I am NOT steeped in Marxist dogma at all nor do any means do I dismiss the importance of individual responsibility. I have been trying to get across to you for years that you are so steeped in a knee-jerk sort of anti-Communist dogmatism that you remind me of our Melbourne bluenoses of over half a century ago - who saw pornographic filth in all things and in all people. The only 'filth" was arguably in these hypocrites' narrowly focused little minds. Likewise you seem to see "socialism" in any collective movement, no matter how innocuous, that advocates the remedy of social injustice as "socialism" (which to you is a dirty word).

Why do you pretend that there is no such thing as injustice in the world. Are you such an innocent that you cannot see then obvious?
cassowary wrote:
Mon Nov 04, 2019 6:48 pm
Its like this.

Government can build a school. But it is up to the kid to study. It takes collective action - paying taxes to fund the school. But it takes individual effort to study. A well educated person will go on to earn high wages. If someone does poorly in school because of disinterest, should be blame an unjust society or himself?
SUPPOSE THE GOVERNMENT FAILS IN ITS DUTY TO BUILD AND/OR STAFF THAT SCHOOL IN THE FIRST PLACE? Suppose the tax system fails to yield enough funds or what is raised is misappropriated and/or misused? Can blame be placed on the shoulders of those kids if they grow up uneducated? If as a consequence they cannot get jobs that attract a decent living wage and in other ways as well are ill equipped for responding to the challenges of life )not all of which by any means relate to career).

What about kids who might even have access to adequate schooling but come from broken homes? Some will rise above that early handicap but not all. A lot more of these are going to end up maladjusted to life compared to the gamut of their peers who came from stable homes and had loving supportive parents.

Contrary to a delusion you seem to cling to: we do not live in a world where everyone gets off to an equal start nor one in which all enjoy equality of opportunity. Though you might be a successful businessman in your own right who did not necessarily benefit from inherited wealth but built up a fortune from scratch through his own enterprise and effort: do not jump to the false conclusion that everyone has had the same opportunity in life as yourself Cassowary. Worse still, that everyone else in this world should be just like yourself.

There are countless injustices across this planet (even in my own blessed country) that are holding people back. Sometimes it unavoidably takes collective endeavor (yea, even endeavor of a political type) to remedy the injustice so that more can satisfy their vocations in life. In that context here is absolutely no injustice in the fact that the ones who disproportionately have to pay the cost are not the ones destined to benefit the most.

Individuals cannot prosper in an environment of unjust (especially of institutionalized) inequality.

Not a case of using social injustice as an "excuse" to explain away individual fecklessness at all. Merely of facing the fact that injustice that cries out for a remedy exist.

I should not have to waste my time and keystrokes having to explain all of this again and again Cassowary as though I am trying to coax a mentally retarded infant. There are certain things that surely need no explanation. Common sense should inform you.

Now, please spare me further anger by ridding yourself of that habit of yours of presuming that the remedy to all of the worlds problems lies in all individuals pulling their fingers out of their backsides and making their best effort. We have people of the same American Neocon sort of mindset out here and like you they are only placing their narcissist egos on display by loading the entire onus of responsibility on the shoulders of individuals.

There are times when I feel such anger towards this type that for their damned impertinence I would get joy in seeing them flogged to within an inch of their lives with cat-o-nine tails whips!

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Re: How did a nice place like Mexico become a failed state?

Post by neverfail » Mon Nov 04, 2019 10:58 pm

cassowary wrote:
Mon Nov 04, 2019 6:48 pm

You clearly reject the notion of personal responsibility. One of those so steeped in Marxist dogma that its not the fault of the individual but entirely the fault of an unjust society.
:lol: I believe that is your inner imp talking for you Cass. :D

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Re: How did a nice place like Mexico become a failed state?

Post by neverfail » Mon Nov 04, 2019 10:59 pm

(post deleted)

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cassowary
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Re: How did a nice place like Mexico become a failed state?

Post by cassowary » Mon Nov 04, 2019 11:40 pm

neverfail wrote:
Mon Nov 04, 2019 9:10 pm
cassowary wrote:
Mon Nov 04, 2019 6:48 pm

You clearly reject the notion of personal responsibility. One of those so steeped in Marxist dogma that its not the fault of the individual but entirely the fault of an unjust society.
I clearly do no such thing CASSOWARY. I am NOT steeped in Marxist dogma at all nor do any means do I dismiss the importance of individual responsibility. I have been trying to get across to you for years that you are so steeped in a knee-jerk sort of anti-Communist dogmatism that you remind me of our Melbourne bluenoses of over half a century ago - who saw pornographic filth in all things and in all people. The only 'filth" was arguably in these hypocrites' narrowly focused little minds. Likewise you seem to see "socialism" in any collective movement, no matter how innocuous, that advocates the remedy of social injustice as "socialism" (which to you is a dirty word).
Why do you pretend that there is no such thing as injustice in the world. Are you such an innocent that you cannot see then obvious?
cassowary wrote:
Mon Nov 04, 2019 6:48 pm
Its like this.

Government can build a school. But it is up to the kid to study. It takes collective action - paying taxes to fund the school. But it takes individual effort to study. A well educated person will go on to earn high wages. If someone does poorly in school because of disinterest, should be blame an unjust society or himself?
SUPPOSE THE GOVERNMENT FAILS IN ITS DUTY TO BUILD AND/OR STAFF THAT SCHOOL IN THE FIRST PLACE? Suppose the tax system fails to yield enough funds or what is raised is misappropriated and/or misused? Can blame be placed on the shoulders of those kids if they grow up uneducated? If as a consequence they cannot get jobs that attract a decent living wage and in other ways as well are ill equipped for responding to the challenges of life )not all of which by any means relate to career).
You have misunderstood me Neverfail. The whole sentence from my previous, previous post read:
"Yes. The truth lies between "it's all my fault" to "its all the fault of a unjust society."
This is an acknowledgement that sometimes society has failed people. If the government failed to provide schools then no matter how motivated a child is, he is not going to get an education. So the need for both government (which is a collective effort) and individual effort are acknowledged. But your reply to my statement was:
You clearly are a stranger to social injustice and the debilitating effect it can have on your life, Cass. Enjoy your innocence!
There was zero acknowledgement on your part that individual effort is needed for prosperity and success. Your emphasis was entirely on social injustice, a theme favorite of Socialists. This is, as I said, opposed to traditional Protestant view that a person's ruin is entirely due to his sins - sloth, extravagance, lust etc. My view is that the truth lies somewhere in between the two.

Hence my exxample of the school. The success of an individual's action requires government or society providing funding to build schools. But it also requires individual effort for the individual to succeed and prosper. I am glad you have now acknowledged the need for individual efforts.

Now that you have done so, let me say that there is little social injustice in the advanced democracies. Education is provided for all. There is no widespread corruption as in many third world countries where public money is stolen leaving insufficient funds to build schools and hospitals. So there is very little excuse to talk about social injustice in a rich advanced democracy.

I don't know much about Australia. So lets talk about the western country I am most familiar with - the US. What the US left seems to deem as social injustice is that some are wealthier than others. They want equality of outcome which is impossible. That's because despite the government providing education, equality before the law, rule of law, there will be inequality of outcome because of different individual efforts and luck.
What about kids who might even have access to adequate schooling but come from broken homes? Some will rise above that early handicap but not all. A lot more of these are going to end up maladjusted to life compared to the gamut of their peers who came from stable homes and had loving supportive parents.
You cannot blame this on an unjust society. Blame the parents. The most common cause of divorce is adultery. Again, this supports the traditional Protestant view that sin leads to ruin and poverty. Unfortunately, the sin of the fathers are visited upon their sons. It can be statistically proven that children from broken homes do less well in school and this will have a lasting impact on their lives in terms of future incomes when they are adults.

The best way to alleviate poverty and suffering is to get people to change their behavior. Not only will this improve the individual, it will also improve the government. After all, the government consists of people too. Dishonest peoples produce corrupt governments such as you see in many Third World countries. Public funds are stolen, depriving people of education and opportunity to find better jobs. Then you get social injustice. The root cause is still sin.
The Imp :D

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Doc
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Re: How did a nice place like Mexico become a failed state?

Post by Doc » Tue Nov 05, 2019 10:56 am

People in Colombia originally looked at Pablo Escobar as a robin hood socialist. By the time of his death they saw him as Colombia's Hitler.

Lower budget but much more detail than Netflix's "Narcos" The full series (I think 100 episodes in Spanish) on Youtube It is also on Netflix with English subtitles. You have to see it to understand what a vicious animal he was:

“"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros

neverfail
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Re: How did a nice place like Mexico become a failed state?

Post by neverfail » Tue Nov 05, 2019 6:35 pm

I was hoping that your earlier post was merely a tongue-in cheek sort of jibe just to get me going. But your subsequent persistence on the theme leads me to the impression that you must be serious after all. Very well Cass, we will take it up from there:
cassowary wrote:
Mon Nov 04, 2019 11:40 pm

There was zero acknowledgement on your part that individual effort is needed for prosperity and success.
Zero acknowledgement? I did not (and still do not) see the need to as you have emphasized that over and over to the point of absurdity. My (from your perspective, undue) emphasis of the social (collective or corporate) side of things represents an attempt by me (apparently futile) to balance things up. That individual effort is needed for individual fulfillment and happiness I take as a given it goes without saying! (lets not speak of "prosperity and success, which I get the impression that you equate with the accursed American dream of a life spent - squandered in many cases - in the acquisition of money and property.
cassowary wrote:
Mon Nov 04, 2019 11:40 pm
Your emphasis was entirely on social injustice, a theme favorite of Socialists.
Well so what! Does that mean that all who are concerned about social justice are necessarily socialists?

https://www.socialjustice.catholic.org.au/

As you can see there are others apart from socialists who have this dimension of concern.

cassowary wrote:
Mon Nov 04, 2019 11:40 pm
This is, as I said, opposed to traditional Protestant view that a person's ruin is entirely due to his sins - sloth, extravagance, lust etc. My view is that the truth lies somewhere in between the two.
Which raises the question "which protestants are you talking about"? Protestants were/are not of one standard make or model but a diverse bunch. There was not one single protestant reformation taking place in the 16th century but at least three major "streams": four if you count King Henry's founding of the Church of England (which I am inclined to regard as a bit bogus as King Henry's succession was not based upon any theological disagreement with Rome).

How do you account for the fact that the Scandinavian countries, all of Lutheran religious heritage, were able to develop into the cradle-to-grave welfare states that they have been now for decades? Do you think it is because of "socialism"? No, it is apparently a latter-day outgrowth of some time honored Scandinavian traditions in which Lutheran Christianity was important in preserving and enhancing. Suffice to say that (like the Catholic Church) the Lutheran Church seems to have retained a sense that the individual thrives best when part of the community
- so that makes community important.

(God, allegedly, created Eve in the garden of Eden because it is not good for man to live alone.)

It is for this reason that the Catholic Church emphasizes communal worship and receipt of the holy sacraments as representing the path to heaven.

I think that when you say "protestant" above you really mean Calvinist. Well, I may point out here that as a non-Calvinist christian I am not obliged to accept (recalling how God once allowed Old Testament Job to be put to the test) that - exclusively of all else - a person's ruin is entirely due to his sins.

Least of all do I accept the late Margaret Thatcher's absurd observation that "there is no such thing as society". :lol:

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