How did a nice place like Mexico become a failed state?

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neverfail
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Re: How did a nice place like Mexico become a failed state?

Post by neverfail » Wed Oct 30, 2019 4:24 pm

Doc wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 1:36 pm

Mexico is corrupt like pretty much all of Latin America. With the added feature that the natives were pretty brutal before the Spanish came along and then the pretty brutalized after the Spanish came. 90% reduction in the native population in central America in the first 100 years after the Spanish.
Yep. the kings of Spain were autocrat rulers who treated their American empire as a private fiefdom to do whatever they liked with - so the Hispanic American republics that emerged in the 19th century reflected that by legacy too often being ruled by military oligarchies or agitator-dictators. By contrast the England whose empire the 13 American colonies belonged to was a constitutional monarchy - so the offspring United States emerged into a constitutional republic. Canada belonged to the British Empire longer than the USA so Canada likewise emerged as a constitutionally sound parliamentary democracy.

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cassowary
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Re: How did a nice place like Mexico become a failed state?

Post by cassowary » Wed Oct 30, 2019 5:36 pm

Doc wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 1:36 pm

Mexico is corrupt like pretty much all of Latin America.
That’s bad of course. But corruption alone does not deter economic development. China is also corrupt. Yet it managed to make stunning progress.

I think it’s the manana mentality in the Latins that makes them bums.
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cassowary
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Re: How did a nice place like Mexico become a failed state?

Post by cassowary » Wed Oct 30, 2019 5:41 pm

neverfail wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 4:24 pm
Doc wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 1:36 pm

Mexico is corrupt like pretty much all of Latin America. With the added feature that the natives were pretty brutal before the Spanish came along and then the pretty brutalized after the Spanish came. 90% reduction in the native population in central America in the first 100 years after the Spanish.
Yep. the kings of Spain were autocrat rulers who treated their American empire as a private fiefdom to do whatever they liked with - so the Hispanic American republics that emerged in the 19th century reflected that by legacy too often being ruled by military oligarchies or agitator-dictators. By contrast the England whose empire the 13 American colonies belonged to was a constitutional monarchy - so the offspring United States emerged into a constitutional republic. Canada belonged to the British Empire longer than the USA so Canada likewise emerged as a constitutionally sound parliamentary democracy.
So did we despite LKY’s despotic rule. But his authoritarian behaviour was directed at leftists. So that is forgiveable. Otherwise the Socialists would have turned us into another Venezuela or worse.
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Sertorio
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Re: How did a nice place like Mexico become a failed state?

Post by Sertorio » Thu Oct 31, 2019 5:36 am

neverfail wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 4:24 pm
Doc wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 1:36 pm

Mexico is corrupt like pretty much all of Latin America. With the added feature that the natives were pretty brutal before the Spanish came along and then the pretty brutalized after the Spanish came. 90% reduction in the native population in central America in the first 100 years after the Spanish.
Yep. the kings of Spain were autocrat rulers who treated their American empire as a private fiefdom to do whatever they liked with - so the Hispanic American republics that emerged in the 19th century reflected that by legacy too often being ruled by military oligarchies or agitator-dictators. By contrast the England whose empire the 13 American colonies belonged to was a constitutional monarchy - so the offspring United States emerged into a constitutional republic. Canada belonged to the British Empire longer than the USA so Canada likewise emerged as a constitutionally sound parliamentary democracy.
Maybe. But Spain was the first western country which gave rise to a movement defending the rights of the natives in the American continent. I mean Bartolomé de las Casas, a dominican friar. Although he influenced some of the King's decisions in respect of America, he finally failed in his attempt at protecting the natives from Spanish greed.

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cassowary
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Re: How did a nice place like Mexico become a failed state?

Post by cassowary » Thu Oct 31, 2019 5:43 am

Sertorio wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 5:36 am
neverfail wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 4:24 pm
Doc wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 1:36 pm

Mexico is corrupt like pretty much all of Latin America. With the added feature that the natives were pretty brutal before the Spanish came along and then the pretty brutalized after the Spanish came. 90% reduction in the native population in central America in the first 100 years after the Spanish.
Yep. the kings of Spain were autocrat rulers who treated their American empire as a private fiefdom to do whatever they liked with - so the Hispanic American republics that emerged in the 19th century reflected that by legacy too often being ruled by military oligarchies or agitator-dictators. By contrast the England whose empire the 13 American colonies belonged to was a constitutional monarchy - so the offspring United States emerged into a constitutional republic. Canada belonged to the British Empire longer than the USA so Canada likewise emerged as a constitutionally sound parliamentary democracy.
Maybe. But Spain was the first western country which gave rise to a movement defending the rights of the natives in the American continent. I mean Bartolomé de las Casas, a dominican friar. Although he influenced some of the King's decisions in respect of America, he finally failed in his attempt at protecting the natives from Spanish greed.
Yes. I have read about las Casas from the book “The idea of Natural Rights.” It’s about Christian inspired human rights. Not your preferred Stoics, Sertorio.
The Imp :D

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Sertorio
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Re: How did a nice place like Mexico become a failed state?

Post by Sertorio » Thu Oct 31, 2019 7:53 am

cassowary wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 5:43 am
Sertorio wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 5:36 am
neverfail wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 4:24 pm
Doc wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 1:36 pm

Mexico is corrupt like pretty much all of Latin America. With the added feature that the natives were pretty brutal before the Spanish came along and then the pretty brutalized after the Spanish came. 90% reduction in the native population in central America in the first 100 years after the Spanish.
Yep. the kings of Spain were autocrat rulers who treated their American empire as a private fiefdom to do whatever they liked with - so the Hispanic American republics that emerged in the 19th century reflected that by legacy too often being ruled by military oligarchies or agitator-dictators. By contrast the England whose empire the 13 American colonies belonged to was a constitutional monarchy - so the offspring United States emerged into a constitutional republic. Canada belonged to the British Empire longer than the USA so Canada likewise emerged as a constitutionally sound parliamentary democracy.
Maybe. But Spain was the first western country which gave rise to a movement defending the rights of the natives in the American continent. I mean Bartolomé de las Casas, a dominican friar. Although he influenced some of the King's decisions in respect of America, he finally failed in his attempt at protecting the natives from Spanish greed.
Yes. I have read about las Casas from the book “The idea of Natural Rights.” It’s about Christian inspired human rights. Not your preferred Stoics, Sertorio.
Not "Christian". Catholic. Had de las Casa been a Calvinist he wouldn't have given a damn about the natives. Don't forget Calvinists invented apartheid... :twisted:

neverfail
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Re: How did a nice place like Mexico become a failed state?

Post by neverfail » Thu Oct 31, 2019 1:23 pm

cassowary wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 5:43 am
Sertorio wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 5:36 am
neverfail wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 4:24 pm
Doc wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 1:36 pm

Mexico is corrupt like pretty much all of Latin America. With the added feature that the natives were pretty brutal before the Spanish came along and then the pretty brutalized after the Spanish came. 90% reduction in the native population in central America in the first 100 years after the Spanish.
Yep. the kings of Spain were autocrat rulers who treated their American empire as a private fiefdom to do whatever they liked with - so the Hispanic American republics that emerged in the 19th century reflected that by legacy too often being ruled by military oligarchies or agitator-dictators. By contrast the England whose empire the 13 American colonies belonged to was a constitutional monarchy - so the offspring United States emerged into a constitutional republic. Canada belonged to the British Empire longer than the USA so Canada likewise emerged as a constitutionally sound parliamentary democracy.
Maybe. But Spain was the first western country which gave rise to a movement defending the rights of the natives in the American continent. I mean Bartolomé de las Casas, a dominican friar. Although he influenced some of the King's decisions in respect of America, he finally failed in his attempt at protecting the natives from Spanish greed.
Yes. I have read about las Casas from the book “The idea of Natural Rights.” It’s about Christian inspired human rights. Not your preferred Stoics, Sertorio.
You are absolutely right on that Cassowary. Las Casas was however building upon something that happened over a century before his time.

It happened in the year 1498 in Rome. After his discovery of the West Indies in 1492 Columbus was adamant that he had discovered the more remote and backward of the legendary spice islands. "give me another chance" Columbus pleaded with his patroness Queen Isabella "and I will bring you the riches of China and India". After Columbus failed three times in succession Isabella had her doubts and so employed another Italian navigator and sea captain, Amerigo Vespucci (after whom the Americas were subsequently named) to do a double check for her in 1498. Vespucci explored a long stretch of coastline from the Guyanas to Florida and reported back to Isabella "No! Columbus did not find his way to Asia but discovered a new and previously unknown continent."

The news must have rocked the Vatican. Please recall that in the Book of Genesis records that the 3 sons of Noah migrated with their wives respectively to Asia, Africa and Europe to progenate the inhabitants of those three continents: but who were the native inhabitants of the America's descended from? After due deliberation the church fathers ruled that the native Americans were NOT humanoids devoid of souls (as first suspected) but fully human beings with immortal souls to be saved.

Without that acknowledgement of the basic humanity of the American Indians there could have been no subsequent of the native Americans having "natural rights".

To think that this was an achievement of the corrupt old Catholic Church that just a quarter of a century into the future Martin Luther was destined to condemn. Which only goes to show that despite all of the petty corruption and abuses of power the Church authorities still got some important things right.

Bishop Las Casas was striving to extend that. Whilst even the government in distant Madrid might have been amenable to granting rights to its Amerindian subjects the Spanish Empire had by then grown too big and cumbersome to exercise control over what Spain's colonists were doing. The Hispanic frontier had become a lawless place.
...........................................................................................................................

The protestant reformation had placed those nations convert to its teachings outside the pale of Catholic Church law and teaching and therefore (in their New World colonies) felt no urge to recognize that the Indians had any natural rights at all. Many must have believed (like Luther) that the Catholic Church had been subverted by the devil and the throne of Saint Peter was occupied by Satan (anathema, anathema!). Indeed, as these protestant colonizers had been influenced by the Calvinist doctrines of being God's elect people by virtue of pre-destination they were inclined to damn the native Americans as irredeemable heathens. What else can you do with them other than get rid of them and turn their lands over to God's elect people rightfully for their own sustenance?

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Doc
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Re: How did a nice place like Mexico become a failed state?

Post by Doc » Fri Nov 01, 2019 2:44 pm

Sertorio wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 5:36 am
neverfail wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 4:24 pm
Doc wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 1:36 pm

Mexico is corrupt like pretty much all of Latin America. With the added feature that the natives were pretty brutal before the Spanish came along and then the pretty brutalized after the Spanish came. 90% reduction in the native population in central America in the first 100 years after the Spanish.
Yep. the kings of Spain were autocrat rulers who treated their American empire as a private fiefdom to do whatever they liked with - so the Hispanic American republics that emerged in the 19th century reflected that by legacy too often being ruled by military oligarchies or agitator-dictators. By contrast the England whose empire the 13 American colonies belonged to was a constitutional monarchy - so the offspring United States emerged into a constitutional republic. Canada belonged to the British Empire longer than the USA so Canada likewise emerged as a constitutionally sound parliamentary democracy.
Maybe. But Spain was the first western country which gave rise to a movement defending the rights of the natives in the American continent. I mean Bartolomé de las Casas, a dominican friar. Although he influenced some of the King's decisions in respect of America, he finally failed in his attempt at protecting the natives from Spanish greed.
They still killed off 90% of the population in the first 100 years.

A "based on history" :roll: Movie:

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0091530/


There was another about Brazil and slavery but I can't remember the name.
“"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros

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Doc
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Re: How did a nice place like Mexico become a failed state?

Post by Doc » Fri Nov 01, 2019 2:46 pm

Ovidio Guzman capture and release video:



A shorter version in English is here:

https://www.wsj.com/articles/video-deta ... 1572532035
“"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros

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Milo
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Re: How did a nice place like Mexico become a failed state?

Post by Milo » Fri Nov 01, 2019 3:40 pm

In my country and profession it is hard to avoid discussion about aboriginal rights.

There are two misconceptions, of the Canadian situation at least, that I would like to correct:

1 European settlers did very little to wipe out the aboriginals, diseases did the vast majority of that.
Germs

In the later context of the European colonization of the Americas, 95% of the indigenous populations are believed to have been killed off by diseases brought by the Europeans. Many were killed by infectious diseases such as smallpox and measles. Similar circumstances were observed in Australia and South Africa. Aboriginal Australians and the Khoikhoi population were decimated by smallpox, measles, influenza and other diseases.[7][8]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guns,_Germs,_and_Steel

2 aboriginal title was recognized early and often
The Royal Proclamation occurred in 1763, and is considered to be the foundation of treaty-making in Canada. This proclamation established a line between the Appalachian Mountains from Nova Scotia to the southern region of the Province of Georgia, and prevented settlement beyond that specific area by white colonists.[3] The proclamation also established protocols that needed to be acknowledged by the governing authority in regards to purchasing land from First Nations Peoples in North America and later Canada.[4] The Royal Proclamation was created as a result of the assertion of British jurisdiction over First Nation territory. While the British laid claim over First Nation territory, uprisings from Pontiac, the Three Fire Confederacy, and other First Nations Peoples resulted in a period of violence between the two peoples as the British attempted to maintain their claim and the Indigenous peoples fought to dislodge British troops from their land. As a result of these uprisings, the intention of the Royal Proclamation was to prevent future disputes.[5] The Royal Proclamation stated that the only authoritative government that was able to purchase land from First Nations People was the British Crown. One of the stipulations of this agreement was that First Nations People were to be informed and attend the public assembly regarding the purchase of lands.[6]

When the British North America Act, 1867 was enacted, a division of power was established between the Dominion Government and its provinces that separated First Nation Peoples and settlers. The federal government retained responsibility for providing health care, education, property rights and creating other laws that would affect the First Nations people.[7][8] Following the establishment of the British North America Acts in 1867, the Dominion Government of Canada replaced the British Crown as the leading authority, and gained control of 19th century First Nations land transfers.[9]

Both the Royal Proclamation and the British North America Acts impacted the procedures of governmental and First Nations People negotiations. They set the stage for future negotiations that would occur, including the numbered treaties that would begin in 1871 with Treaty 1.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Numbered_Treaties
Section 35 of the Constitution Act, 1982 provides constitutional protection to the indigenous and treaty rights of indigenous peoples in Canada. The section, while within the Constitution of Canada, falls outside the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. The section does not define the term "aboriginal rights" or provide a closed list; some examples of the rights that section 35 has been found to protect are fishing, logging, hunting, the right to land (cf. aboriginal title) and the right to enforcement of treaties. There remains a debate over whether the right to indigenous self-government is included within section 35. As of 2006 the Supreme Court of Canada has made no ruling on the matter. However, since 1995 the Government of Canada has had a policy recognizing the inherent right of self-government under section 35.[1]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Section_3 ... _Act,_1982

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