The Liberation of Venezuela

Discussion of current events
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Sertorio
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Re: The Liberation of Venezuela

Post by Sertorio » Sun Feb 10, 2019 1:51 am

Doc wrote:
Sat Feb 09, 2019 5:57 pm
Sertorio wrote:
Sat Feb 09, 2019 11:22 am
Doc wrote:
Sat Feb 09, 2019 10:30 am
Sertorio wrote:
Sat Feb 09, 2019 12:55 am
SteveFoerster wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 6:32 pm
Sertorio wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 3:40 am
Maduro is doing no more than Chavez did, and things were quite normal under Chavez. Because by then Venezuela was getting all the money due it for the sale of oil.
No, because at that point the regime had not yet run out of things to steal.
Just out of curiosity, what precisely did the regime steal, and from whom?

THe massive oil profits and from the Venezuelan people. Not all of it but enough to destroy the wealthiest country in South America
And before the regime stole those oil profits, to whom did they belong?...
The people of Venezuela. Chavez's daughter is now the richest person in Venezuela

http://culturalmarxism.net/socialism-wo ... venezuela/
You must be joking! So the profits of oil exploitation belong to the people! I suppose that western oil companies distribute their profits to the people... How do they do it?...

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Doc
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Re: The Liberation of Venezuela

Post by Doc » Sun Feb 10, 2019 2:33 am

Sertorio wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 1:51 am
Doc wrote:
Sat Feb 09, 2019 5:57 pm
Sertorio wrote:
Sat Feb 09, 2019 11:22 am
Doc wrote:
Sat Feb 09, 2019 10:30 am
Sertorio wrote:
Sat Feb 09, 2019 12:55 am
SteveFoerster wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 6:32 pm

No, because at that point the regime had not yet run out of things to steal.
Just out of curiosity, what precisely did the regime steal, and from whom?

THe massive oil profits and from the Venezuelan people. Not all of it but enough to destroy the wealthiest country in South America
And before the regime stole those oil profits, to whom did they belong?...
The people of Venezuela. Chavez's daughter is now the richest person in Venezuela

http://culturalmarxism.net/socialism-wo ... venezuela/
You must be joking! So the profits of oil exploitation belong to the people! I suppose that western oil companies distribute their profits to the people... How do they do it?...
Venezuela has a state owned oil company, which you certainly know. So do you feel the oil profits are owned by the people in the maduro regime ?

“"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros

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Sertorio
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Re: The Liberation of Venezuela

Post by Sertorio » Sun Feb 10, 2019 3:36 am

Doc wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 2:33 am

Venezuela has a state owned oil company, which you certainly know. So do you feel the oil profits are owned by the people in the maduro regime ?
They should and they are. In any case a lot more than they would if Venezuelan oil was exploited by American privately owned oil companies. Which would happen if Maduro is overthrown. If we think of the Venezuelan people, they are now more entitled to the oil revenues than they would in any other situation. If you want to see Maduro overthrown, you will have to find a better excuse...

neverfail
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Re: Chavez-Maduro: the final nail in Venezuela's coffin?

Post by neverfail » Sun Feb 10, 2019 3:42 am

Don't get the impression that Chavez-Maduro alone caused Venezuela's current state of woe. The decline of this pererostate has been ongoing for over half a century. Chavez-Maduro are only the latest episode in the sad story of decline:
During Pérez Jiménez' dictatorship from 1952 to 1958, Venezuela enjoyed remarkably high GDP growth, so that in the late 1950s Venezuela's real GDP per capita almost reached that of West Germany. In 1950, Venezuela was the world's 4th largest wealthiest nation per capita.[37] However, Rómulo Betancourt (President from 1959 to 1964) inherited from 1958–1959 onward an enormous internal and external debt caused by rampant public spending during the dictatorship.
(please read in full) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Venezuela

Beginning around 1900, it reminds me of Argentina's decline from one of the three or four wealthiest (wealthiest in terms of average real incomes and general living standards) countries on earth down to current basket case status.

neverfail
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Re: The Liberation of Venezuela

Post by neverfail » Sun Feb 10, 2019 3:46 am

Sertorio wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 3:36 am
Doc wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 2:33 am

Venezuela has a state owned oil company, which you certainly know. So do you feel the oil profits are owned by the people in the maduro regime ?
They should and they are. In any case a lot more than they would if Venezuelan oil was exploited by American privately owned oil companies. Which would happen if Maduro is overthrown. If we think of the Venezuelan people, they are now more entitled to the oil revenues than they would in any other situation. If you want to see Maduro overthrown, you will have to find a better excuse...
The oil companies do not even need to be American doc: just international and reputable. Indeed, it would be highly undesirable if US big oil were to benefit in the way you seem to suggest as it would make it look as though the end of Maduro's regime was engineered for the benefit of the US oil majors - which it not how it should be.

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Sertorio
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Re: Chavez-Maduro: the final nail in Venezuela's coffin?

Post by Sertorio » Sun Feb 10, 2019 3:59 am

neverfail wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 3:42 am

Beginning around 1900, it reminds me of Argentina's decline from one of the three or four wealthiest (wealthiest in terms of average real incomes and general living standards) countries on earth down to current basket case status.
Argentina is to me the most puzzling country in the world. How can a richly endowed country in natural resources and agricultural potential, with an educated population mostly of European descent, be so incapable of providing its people with a high standard of living. What the hell are doing wrong?...

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cassowary
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Re: Chavez-Maduro: the final nail in Venezuela's coffin?

Post by cassowary » Sun Feb 10, 2019 4:35 am

Sertorio wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 3:59 am
neverfail wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 3:42 am

Beginning around 1900, it reminds me of Argentina's decline from one of the three or four wealthiest (wealthiest in terms of average real incomes and general living standards) countries on earth down to current basket case status.
Argentina is to me the most puzzling country in the world. How can a richly endowed country in natural resources and agricultural potential, with an educated population mostly of European descent, be so incapable of providing its people with a high standard of living. What the hell are doing wrong?...
It went from laizez faire capitalism to Socialism, that's why. Even Peron's fascism was a form of Socialism.
The Imp :D

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Sertorio
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Re: Chavez-Maduro: the final nail in Venezuela's coffin?

Post by Sertorio » Sun Feb 10, 2019 5:05 am

cassowary wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 4:35 am
Sertorio wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 3:59 am
neverfail wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 3:42 am

Beginning around 1900, it reminds me of Argentina's decline from one of the three or four wealthiest (wealthiest in terms of average real incomes and general living standards) countries on earth down to current basket case status.
Argentina is to me the most puzzling country in the world. How can a richly endowed country in natural resources and agricultural potential, with an educated population mostly of European descent, be so incapable of providing its people with a high standard of living. What the hell are doing wrong?...
It went from laizez faire capitalism to Socialism, that's why. Even Peron's fascism was a form of Socialism.
Your single explanation for all problems of the world is laughable. The present Argentina government, which is not socialist, is as incapable of solving the country's problems as all the others. But I will agree that large budget deficits financed by external debt, and excessive tampering with the functioning of the markets, are two causes for the debacle. A government can stop speculation without brutal price controls that will force imports to replace shortages in the internal production. Even a socialist government can keep its policies within the limits of economic sanity, which apparently was not the case with Argentina. A country with a sustained trade surplus can finance reasonable public expenditure without recourse to debt and with a tax revenue which does not have to impose excessive taxes. Argentina has not yet learned how to achieve this. Maybe because of corruption.

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Doc
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Re: The Liberation of Venezuela

Post by Doc » Sun Feb 10, 2019 8:43 am

Sertorio wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 3:36 am
Doc wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 2:33 am

Venezuela has a state owned oil company, which you certainly know. So do you feel the oil profits are owned by the people in the maduro regime ?
They should and they are. In any case a lot more than they would if Venezuelan oil was exploited by American privately owned oil companies. Which would happen if Maduro is overthrown. If we think of the Venezuelan people, they are now more entitled to the oil revenues than they would in any other situation. If you want to see Maduro overthrown, you will have to find a better excuse...
“"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros

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Doc
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Re: Chavez-Maduro: the final nail in Venezuela's coffin?

Post by Doc » Sun Feb 10, 2019 9:11 am

neverfail wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 3:42 am
Don't get the impression that Chavez-Maduro alone caused Venezuela's current state of woe. The decline of this pererostate has been ongoing for over half a century. Chavez-Maduro are only the latest episode in the sad story of decline:
During Pérez Jiménez' dictatorship from 1952 to 1958, Venezuela enjoyed remarkably high GDP growth, so that in the late 1950s Venezuela's real GDP per capita almost reached that of West Germany. In 1950, Venezuela was the world's 4th largest wealthiest nation per capita.[37] However, Rómulo Betancourt (President from 1959 to 1964) inherited from 1958–1959 onward an enormous internal and external debt caused by rampant public spending during the dictatorship.
(please read in full) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Venezuela

Beginning around 1900, it reminds me of Argentina's decline from one of the three or four wealthiest (wealthiest in terms of average real incomes and general living standards) countries on earth down to current basket case status.


In spite of trelations between the two countries, the United States has been Venezuela's most important trading partner. American exports to Venezuela have included machinery, agricultural products, medical instruments and cars. Venezuela is one of the top four suppliers of foreign oil to the United States. About 500 American companies are represented in Venezuela.[16] According to Central Bank of Venezuela, between 1998 and 2008 the government received around 325 billion USD through oil production and exports in general.[17] According to the International Energy Agency (as of August 2015), the production of 2.4 million barrels per day supplied 500,000 barrels to the United States.[18]

Since the Bolivarian Revolution half-dismantled its PDVSA oil giant corporation in 2002 by firing most of its 20,000-strong dissident professional human capital and imposed stringent currency controls in 2003 in an attempt to prevent capital flight,[19] there has been a steady decline in oil production and exports and a series of stern currency devaluations, disrupting the economy.[20] Further yet, price controls, expropriation of numerous farmlands and various industries, among other disputable government policies including a near-total freeze on any access to foreign currency at reasonable "official" exchange rates, have resulted in severe shortages in Venezuela and steep price rises of all common goods, including food, water, household products, spare parts, tools and medical supplies; forcing many manufacturers to either cut production or close down, with many ultimately abandoning the country as has been the case with several technological firms and most automobile makers.[21][22] In 2015, Venezuela had over 100% inflation—the highest in the world and the highest in the country's history at that time.[23] According to independent sources, the rate increased to 4,000% in 2017[24][25][26][27] with Venezuela spiraling into hyperinflation[28] while the population poverty rate was between 76%[29] and 87%.[7][24] On 14 November 2017, credit rating agencies declared that Venezuela was in default with its debt payments, with Standard & Poor's categorizing Venezuela as being in "selective default".[30][31]

1960s–1990sEdit

Buoyed by a strong oil sector in the 1960s and 1970s, Venezuela's governments were able to maintain social harmony by spending fairly large amounts on public programs including health care, education, transport and food subsidies. Literacy and welfare programs benefited tremendously from these conditions.[38] Because of the oil wealth, Venezuelan workers "enjoyed the highest wages in Latin America".[39] This situation was reversed when oil prices collapsed during the 1980s.

When world oil prices collapsed in the 1980s, the economy contracted and inflation levels (consumer price inflation) rose, remaining between 6 and 12% from 1982 to 1986.[40][41] The inflation rate peaked in 1989 at 84%,[41] the year the capital city of Caracas suffered from rioting during the Caracazo following the cut of government spending and the opening of markets by President Carlos Andrés Pérez.[42] [bold]After Pérez initiated such liberal economic policies and made Venezuelan markets more free, Venezuela's GDP went from a -8.3% decline in 1989 to growing 4.4% in 1990 and 9.2% in 1991, though wages remained low and unemployment was high among Venezuelans[/bold]
From 1960 until Chavez took over Venezuela it was a democracy. It had problems but there was medicine and food people weren't dying, weren't fleeing the country in millions.
“"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros

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