What does Britain hope to gain from this?

Discussion of current events
User avatar
Sertorio
Posts: 2330
Joined: Fri Dec 16, 2016 3:12 am

Re: What does Britain hope to gain from this?

Post by Sertorio » Thu Jan 10, 2019 4:59 am

As I see it - and I am sitting very far from East Timor - Ramos Horta recognized Australia's quasi-colonial ambitions on East Timor and on its resources, and saw the Australian military in East Timor as the enforcing arm of Australia's ambitions. The Portuguese Republican Army company was meant not to fight the Australian forces, but to give Ramos Horta some means to free itself from Australian diktat. The tension between the two forces came when the Australian army wanted to restrict the Republican Army freedom of movement in the streets of Dili. Although the Republican Army is a professional corps specialized in urban fighting, I am quite sure the thought of fighting the Australians didn't even cross the Republican Army's local commander's mind.

Neverfail's idea that the Timorese authorities were weary of Australia's intentions while the Timorese people were all in love with the Australia's military seems a bit far fetched. Historically the Timorese had all reasons to be suspicious of Australia and the Australians, starting with the invasion of Timor by the Australians in 1941 (1942?) which was the immediate cause of the subsequent invasion by the Japanese army. The Timorese also know all about Australia's wishes to take over all the oil and gas existing between the two countries. And that's not all. Australians were buying Timorese coffee at below market prices, until a Portuguese company came and bought the whole coffee production at higher prices, which very much upset the Australians. Portugal can hardly balance the influence neighbouring Australia has in East Timor, but it may make East Timor less dependent on Australians. Timor's adoption of the Portuguese language as the official language, even though only a minority of Timorese could speak it is a sign that East Timor uses Portugal to consolidate its fragile independence from Australia. Friendship with Portugal is as deep seated as suspicion of Australia. Which is quite understandable.

User avatar
Milo
Posts: 1697
Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2016 10:14 pm

Re: What does Britain hope to gain from this?

Post by Milo » Thu Jan 10, 2019 3:27 pm

Sertorio wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 4:59 am
As I see it - and I am sitting very far from East Timor - Ramos Horta recognized Australia's quasi-colonial ambitions on East Timor and on its resources, and saw the Australian military in East Timor as the enforcing arm of Australia's ambitions. The Portuguese Republican Army company was meant not to fight the Australian forces, but to give Ramos Horta some means to free itself from Australian diktat. The tension between the two forces came when the Australian army wanted to restrict the Republican Army freedom of movement in the streets of Dili. Although the Republican Army is a professional corps specialized in urban fighting, I am quite sure the thought of fighting the Australians didn't even cross the Republican Army's local commander's mind.

Neverfail's idea that the Timorese authorities were weary of Australia's intentions while the Timorese people were all in love with the Australia's military seems a bit far fetched. Historically the Timorese had all reasons to be suspicious of Australia and the Australians, starting with the invasion of Timor by the Australians in 1941 (1942?) which was the immediate cause of the subsequent invasion by the Japanese army. The Timorese also know all about Australia's wishes to take over all the oil and gas existing between the two countries. And that's not all. Australians were buying Timorese coffee at below market prices, until a Portuguese company came and bought the whole coffee production at higher prices, which very much upset the Australians. Portugal can hardly balance the influence neighbouring Australia has in East Timor, but it may make East Timor less dependent on Australians. Timor's adoption of the Portuguese language as the official language, even though only a minority of Timorese could speak it is a sign that East Timor uses Portugal to consolidate its fragile independence from Australia. Friendship with Portugal is as deep seated as suspicion of Australia. Which is quite understandable.
Umm, that entire force was under UN command, not any one country's and Horta wasn't either president or prime minister while it was there.

Care to explain how a guy who wasn't in change of the force, was?

User avatar
Sertorio
Posts: 2330
Joined: Fri Dec 16, 2016 3:12 am

Re: What does Britain hope to gain from this?

Post by Sertorio » Thu Jan 10, 2019 5:49 pm

Milo wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 3:27 pm
Sertorio wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 4:59 am
As I see it - and I am sitting very far from East Timor - Ramos Horta recognized Australia's quasi-colonial ambitions on East Timor and on its resources, and saw the Australian military in East Timor as the enforcing arm of Australia's ambitions. The Portuguese Republican Army company was meant not to fight the Australian forces, but to give Ramos Horta some means to free itself from Australian diktat. The tension between the two forces came when the Australian army wanted to restrict the Republican Army freedom of movement in the streets of Dili. Although the Republican Army is a professional corps specialized in urban fighting, I am quite sure the thought of fighting the Australians didn't even cross the Republican Army's local commander's mind.

Neverfail's idea that the Timorese authorities were weary of Australia's intentions while the Timorese people were all in love with the Australia's military seems a bit far fetched. Historically the Timorese had all reasons to be suspicious of Australia and the Australians, starting with the invasion of Timor by the Australians in 1941 (1942?) which was the immediate cause of the subsequent invasion by the Japanese army. The Timorese also know all about Australia's wishes to take over all the oil and gas existing between the two countries. And that's not all. Australians were buying Timorese coffee at below market prices, until a Portuguese company came and bought the whole coffee production at higher prices, which very much upset the Australians. Portugal can hardly balance the influence neighbouring Australia has in East Timor, but it may make East Timor less dependent on Australians. Timor's adoption of the Portuguese language as the official language, even though only a minority of Timorese could speak it is a sign that East Timor uses Portugal to consolidate its fragile independence from Australia. Friendship with Portugal is as deep seated as suspicion of Australia. Which is quite understandable.
Umm, that entire force was under UN command, not any one country's and Horta wasn't either president or prime minister while it was there.

Care to explain how a guy who wasn't in change of the force, was?
You are right. Where I mentioned Ramos Horta I should have said Xanana Gusmao. My mistake. But it doesn't change the facts mentioned by me, nor the problems with Australia.

neverfail
Posts: 3195
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2016 3:47 am

Re: What does Britain hope to gain from this?

Post by neverfail » Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:40 pm

Sertorio wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 5:49 pm
You are right. Where I mentioned Ramos Horta I should have said Xanana Gusmao. My mistake. But it doesn't change the facts mentioned by me, nor the problems with Australia.


You are right in that you are far from East Timor; as far as it as you are from the truth in the matter. Australia 'craves' East Timor's natural resources (as if we are a country poor in natural resources of our own? :lol: :| :( -sick joke!) WHAT natural resources? It has nothing on its mainland worth having. Oh please Sertorio; straighten out your thinking.

East Timor has problems with Australia? WE have problems with East Timor sertorio. Australian entered into an international agreement with Indonesia when it was the sovereign power over there. Billions of dollars were then invested in developing those oil and gas reserves in good faith that the seabed would remain permanent in Australian hands.

As Milo pointed out; those Australian troops would not have been there had it not been for United Nations sanction.

The Howard government sent them there reluctantly. The fact that Australia was the only Western country to formally recognise the Indonesian annexation of East Timor I assure you caused me 23 years of disquiet.

User avatar
Sertorio
Posts: 2330
Joined: Fri Dec 16, 2016 3:12 am

Re: What does Britain hope to gain from this?

Post by Sertorio » Fri Jan 11, 2019 1:25 am

neverfail wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:40 pm
Australian entered into an international agreement with Indonesia when it was the sovereign power over there. Billions of dollars were then invested in developing those oil and gas reserves in good faith that the seabed would remain permanent in Australian hands.
Indonesia invaded East Timor in violation of international law, and then Australia enters "in good faith" an agreement with the violator, and expects to keep the benefits of an illegal treaty after East Timor succeeds in freeing itself from the invader!... Most extraordinary.

Yes, East Timor is poor, in comparison with Australia, and in spite of that Australia can't wait to get its hands on the little wealth East Timor possesses. Whether oil, natural gas or coffee. Portugal may have been a poor colonizer of Timor, but Australia is a great exploiter of its weak neighbour. Very Anglo-Saxon, indeed...

neverfail
Posts: 3195
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2016 3:47 am

Re: What does Britain hope to gain from this?

Post by neverfail » Fri Jan 11, 2019 5:23 am

Sertorio wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 1:25 am
neverfail wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:40 pm
Australian entered into an international agreement with Indonesia when it was the sovereign power over there. Billions of dollars were then invested in developing those oil and gas reserves in good faith that the seabed would remain permanent in Australian hands.
Indonesia invaded East Timor in violation of international law, and then Australia enters "in good faith" an agreement with the violator, and expects to keep the benefits of an illegal treaty after East Timor succeeds in freeing itself from the invader!... Most extraordinary.

Yes, East Timor is poor, in comparison with Australia, and in spite of that Australia can't wait to get its hands on the little wealth East Timor possesses. Whether oil, natural gas or coffee. Portugal may have been a poor colonizer of Timor, but Australia is a great exploiter of its weak neighbour. Very Anglo-Saxon, indeed...
It was a grubby deal, I agree. One of countless made by governments around the world in their own country's best interests. But prior to the 1989 agreement the issue of indeterminate sovereignty over those waters was holding up exploration; - so it was either do a deal with the Suharto government in Indonesia or do without the oil and gas. In recent memory would have been the prolonged OPEC high oil price spike of 1973m to 1982 engineered by OPEC, the quest for oil self-sufficiency would have been a factor motivating the Australian government's desire for additional exploration acreage. Australia is indeed rich in several subsoil resources but oil is not one of them.

Once the Indonesians had invaded and subjugated East Timor it looked as though they were destined to be there forever. The chances of East Timor ever being able to wrest sovereign independence from such a colossus looked nil. Australia just had to live with that and continue to do business with our near neighbour to the northwest.

Yes, Indonesia did invade against international law - I know not of an invasion anywhere that have been undertaken in compliance with it :) . However, with a leftist government of young radicals in charge of East Timor after FRETILIN won the civil war, the Suharto government in Jakarta was scared shitless that a sort of "second Cuba" had emerged within their archipelago. Naturally, they were keen to quash it - lest it become a seat of subversion for other parts of Indonesia. The loathing of Suharto for anything that smacked of Communism was visceral - bearing in mind that members of Suharto's own household had been murdered during an attempted left coup back in 1965.

Indonesia did not invade East Timor because it coveted its natural resources - it had none on offer. The newly appropriated provence subsequently cost the Indonesians plenty in terms of state subsidies. The way that the Fretilin government was going on in in East Timor in 1975 must have been like waving a red rag at an enraged bull. It speaks volumes about the utter incompetence of the hothead young radicals in Dili that they were so oblivious to the anxieties of their big neighbour.

If Portugal had been a concerned, caring colonial ruler it should have stayed on a while longer and guided this unready half-island on to an orderly gaining of independence under a responsible government. But of course, after your 1974 revolution in Portugal that wiped away the remnants of the former Salazar-Caterno authoritarian regime the public mood back in Portugal was apparently for Portugal to divest itself of its overseas empire as swiftly as possible. Empire must have become an embarrassment to it by then. To cut and run became the Portuguese style. Portugal dumped sovereign independence on Angola when there was still an unresolved power rivalry between two tribally based native factions, the MPLA and UNITA: ensuring that Angola was destined to endure nothing but the agony of internal conflict for the next quarter century.

So please sertorio, do not judge Australia harshly because our own dealings with East Timor have not been exactly flawless. Point an accusing finger at us and you might not have noticed that three are pointing back at you.

User avatar
Milo
Posts: 1697
Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2016 10:14 pm

Re: What does Britain hope to gain from this?

Post by Milo » Fri Jan 11, 2019 3:23 pm

Sertorio wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 5:49 pm
Milo wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 3:27 pm
Sertorio wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 4:59 am
As I see it - and I am sitting very far from East Timor - Ramos Horta recognized Australia's quasi-colonial ambitions on East Timor and on its resources, and saw the Australian military in East Timor as the enforcing arm of Australia's ambitions. The Portuguese Republican Army company was meant not to fight the Australian forces, but to give Ramos Horta some means to free itself from Australian diktat. The tension between the two forces came when the Australian army wanted to restrict the Republican Army freedom of movement in the streets of Dili. Although the Republican Army is a professional corps specialized in urban fighting, I am quite sure the thought of fighting the Australians didn't even cross the Republican Army's local commander's mind.

Neverfail's idea that the Timorese authorities were weary of Australia's intentions while the Timorese people were all in love with the Australia's military seems a bit far fetched. Historically the Timorese had all reasons to be suspicious of Australia and the Australians, starting with the invasion of Timor by the Australians in 1941 (1942?) which was the immediate cause of the subsequent invasion by the Japanese army. The Timorese also know all about Australia's wishes to take over all the oil and gas existing between the two countries. And that's not all. Australians were buying Timorese coffee at below market prices, until a Portuguese company came and bought the whole coffee production at higher prices, which very much upset the Australians. Portugal can hardly balance the influence neighbouring Australia has in East Timor, but it may make East Timor less dependent on Australians. Timor's adoption of the Portuguese language as the official language, even though only a minority of Timorese could speak it is a sign that East Timor uses Portugal to consolidate its fragile independence from Australia. Friendship with Portugal is as deep seated as suspicion of Australia. Which is quite understandable.
Umm, that entire force was under UN command, not any one country's and Horta wasn't either president or prime minister while it was there.

Care to explain how a guy who wasn't in change of the force, was?
You are right. Where I mentioned Ramos Horta I should have said Xanana Gusmao. My mistake. But it doesn't change the facts mentioned by me, nor the problems with Australia.
It literally DOES change the facts mentioned by you and you still haven't explained how this one person ordered the UN to change the composition of a a force not under their command. Nor have you provided any proof of anyone feeling the way you said they did about the Australians being there or that anyone felt that including Portugese forces would change anything.

User avatar
Sertorio
Posts: 2330
Joined: Fri Dec 16, 2016 3:12 am

Re: What does Britain hope to gain from this?

Post by Sertorio » Fri Jan 11, 2019 3:51 pm

Milo wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 3:23 pm
Sertorio wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 5:49 pm

You are right. Where I mentioned Ramos Horta I should have said Xanana Gusmao. My mistake. But it doesn't change the facts mentioned by me, nor the problems with Australia.
It literally DOES change the facts mentioned by you and you still haven't explained how this one person ordered the UN to change the composition of a a force not under their command. Nor have you provided any proof of anyone feeling the way you said they did about the Australians being there or that anyone felt that including Portugese forces would change anything.
Sometimes, rather than ask questions you should use your brains. Surprisingly enough it does help getting the right answers...

User avatar
Sertorio
Posts: 2330
Joined: Fri Dec 16, 2016 3:12 am

Re: What does Britain hope to gain from this?

Post by Sertorio » Sat Jan 12, 2019 1:38 am

neverfail wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 5:23 am

Once the Indonesians had invaded and subjugated East Timor it looked as though they were destined to be there forever. The chances of East Timor ever being able to wrest sovereign independence from such a colossus looked nil. Australia just had to live with that and continue to do business with our near neighbour to the northwest.
If the fait accompli is the guiding line of Australia's policies, why not recognize Crimea's reunification with Russia or China's sovereignty over the islands on the South China's sea?...

neverfail
Posts: 3195
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2016 3:47 am

Re: What does Britain hope to gain from this?

Post by neverfail » Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:55 am

Sertorio wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 1:38 am
neverfail wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 5:23 am

Once the Indonesians had invaded and subjugated East Timor it looked as though they were destined to be there forever. The chances of East Timor ever being able to wrest sovereign independence from such a colossus looked nil. Australia just had to live with that and continue to do business with our near neighbour to the northwest.
If the fait accompli is the guiding line of Australia's policies, why not recognize Crimea's reunification with Russia or China's sovereignty over the islands on the South China's sea?...
Neither of these above mentioned are located right on our front doorstep. Indonesia is considered here to be a special case because of its close geographical proximity.

Post Reply