Global warming: could it be entirely in God's hands, not man's?

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SteveFoerster
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Re: Global warming: could it be entirely in God's hands, not man's?

Post by SteveFoerster » Thu Jun 16, 2022 4:45 pm

neverfail wrote:
Thu Jun 16, 2022 3:22 pm
So Doc, as I pointed out the ground in eastern Panama at the approaches to the the Columbia border is swampy but level. Why did they not excavate the Panama Canal there instead of through those geological unsteady hills where locks were needed to accommodate the ships destined to pass through between oceans? They could have had a level ground canal akin to the Suez canal differing only that it would have been flanked on both sides by tropical jungle instead of by treeless desert. Surely they could have done it there at lower cost?
Perhaps Malaria was such a big enough problem as it was with the higher location that they couldn't have managed digging a hundred miles through a tropical bog without too high a death toll?

Besides, flat and easily managed aren't the same thing. Even today, the Darien Gap is so impassible that there is no road through it. Which is pretty amazing when you consider that you can drive from Alaska to Patagonia -- except for that stretch.
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Re: Global warming: could it be entirely in God's hands, not man's?

Post by Doc » Thu Jun 16, 2022 5:07 pm

SteveFoerster wrote:
Thu Jun 16, 2022 4:45 pm
neverfail wrote:
Thu Jun 16, 2022 3:22 pm
So Doc, as I pointed out the ground in eastern Panama at the approaches to the the Columbia border is swampy but level. Why did they not excavate the Panama Canal there instead of through those geological unsteady hills where locks were needed to accommodate the ships destined to pass through between oceans? They could have had a level ground canal akin to the Suez canal differing only that it would have been flanked on both sides by tropical jungle instead of by treeless desert. Surely they could have done it there at lower cost?
Perhaps Malaria was such a big enough problem as it was with the higher location that they couldn't have managed digging a hundred miles through a tropical bog without too high a death toll?

Besides, flat and easily managed aren't the same thing. Even today, the Darien Gap is so impassible that there is no road through it. Which is pretty amazing when you consider that you can drive from Alaska to Patagonia -- except for that stretch.
Malaria mitigation was pretty much solved in Panama with the America construction of the 51 mile long canal The American doctor that discovered and prove that Malaria in Cuba was put in charge of eliminating Malaria and Yellow fever for the project. They started using nets and eliminating breeding pools for Mosquitos. It worked. Where the French lost 1,000s when they attempted to build the canal the American effort lost very few relatively.

Also the canal level is not that far above sea level. The French tried to build a sea level canal without realizing the with the tides the sea level in the Pacific is a couple of feet different than the Atlantic. Which would mean a pretty strong current from one side to the other without locks.

The Darien Gap is either swamps or mountains. The last time road construction to cross it was shut down due to environmental reasons.
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Re: Global warming: could it be entirely in God's hands, not man's?

Post by Doc » Thu Jun 16, 2022 5:20 pm

neverfail wrote:
Thu Jun 16, 2022 3:22 pm
Doc wrote:
Thu Jun 16, 2022 8:23 am

the geology of the isthmus does have fold mountains that are very unstable. WHen the Panama canal was built the mountains it was built though crossed five major fault lines. Which caused the cuts through the mountains to slide into the construction site much more often than was predicted before the work started,
I knew about rim of fire active volcanos further north in central America but Panama had me fooled because the country is not famous for volcanic activity. Also the range in western and central Panama is of much lower altitude than further north in central America.

So Doc, as I pointed out the ground in eastern Panama at the approaches to the the Columbia border is swampy but level. Why did they not excavate the Panama Canal there instead of through those geological unsteady hills where locks were needed to accommodate the ships destined to pass through between oceans? They could have had a level ground canal akin to the Suez canal differing only that it would have been flanked on both sides by tropical jungle instead of by treeless desert. Surely they could have done it there at lower cost?
ON the Panama side of the Darian gap is fairly mountainous for the most part. Very hard to get equipment through to build on the flat side.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geology_of_Panama
Geology of Panama
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The geology of Panama includes the complex tectonic interplay between the Pacific, Cocos and Nazca plates, the Caribbean Plate and the Panama Microplate.[1]

Geologic History, Stratigraphy & Tectonics
The Cocos and Nazca plates formed in the Miocene. The Panama Microplate is made of oceanic crust basalt, similar to the basalt plateau at the bottom of the Caribbean Sea. The isthmus of Panama formed due to convergent tectonics of the eastern Pacific subduction zone, which created a magmatic arc extending from southern North America.

The center of the isthmus, from Arenal Volcano in Costa Rica to El Valle volcano in Panama was uplifted during the subduction of the unusually thick Cocos Ridge oceanic crust, which also produced the four kilometer high Talamanca Range. The western edge of the Caribbean Plate—the Central American Volcanic Arc—also collided in the Neogene and was compressed as the South American Plate moved northward. The El Valle volcano is the easternmost stratovolcano in Central America. Dacite and andesite flows from five to 10 million years ago are the oldest rocks, followed by a period of quiet 3.4 million years ago and newer dacite domes and pyroclastic flows between 900,000 and 200,000 years ago. The volcano was the result of crust subduction.[2]

The combination of these forces produced the Isthmus of Panama and resulted in different sea surface salinity between the Pacific and Atlantic since 4.2 million years ago.[3] It also resulted in massive interchange of species between North and South America and brought global changes in climate and ocean circulation. The Bocas del Toro Archipelago on the western Caribbean coast records local stratigraphy through this period, with Pliocene to Pleistocene coral reef carbonates overlying Miocene basalt and siliclastic shale.[4]

In the remote southeastern Darién Province, crystalline basement rock of the San Blas Complex forms massifs in the northeast and southwest, dating to the Cretaceous, Paleocene and Eocene. These rocks and others in the north such as rhyolite, dacite, basaltic andesite, granodiorite and quartz diorite indicate that the region was a separate magmatic arc until 20 million years ago. In the south, pre-collision basement rocks include radiolarian chert, pillow basalt and diabase. Complex faulting and folding formed the Chucunaque-Tuira Basin includes three kilometers of sediments from the Miocene deposited during the collision with South America.[5]

Offshore of Colombia and western Panama, the Panama Basin formed between 27 and eight million years ago due to asymmetric seafloor spreading between the Nazca and Cocos plates. The Mapelo rift and the Yaquina graben in the eastern basin are remnants of old and now inactive spreading centers. Between 22 and 20 million years ago, hotspot volcanism generated the Carnegie, Cocos and Malpelo ridges.[6]
You have proven your case Doc. Well done!
“"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros

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Re: Global warming: could it be entirely in God's hands, not man's?

Post by neverfail » Sat Jun 18, 2022 12:30 am

Now, getting back to the topic, I think that your quote deserves further attention Doc:
Doc wrote:
Wed Jun 15, 2022 8:54 pm
Image
Reconstruction of the past 5 million years of climate history, based on oxygen isotope fractionation in deep sea sediment cores (serving as a proxy for the total global mass of glacial ice sheets), fitted to a model of orbital forcing (Lisiecki and Raymo 2005)[2] and to the temperature scale derived from Vostok ice cores following Petit et al. (1999).[3]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geologic_ ... ure_record

Description of the temperature record

The last 3 million years have been characterized by cycles of glacials and interglacials within a gradually deepening ice age. Currently, the Earth is in an interglacial period, beginning about 20,000 years ago (20 kya).

The cycles of glaciation involve the growth and retreat of continental ice sheets in the Northern Hemisphere and involve fluctuations on a number of time scales, notably on the 21 ky, 41 ky and 100 ky scales. Such cycles are usually interpreted as being driven by predictable changes in the Earth orbit known as Milankovitch cycles. At the beginning of the Middle Pleistocene (0.8 million years ago, close to the Brunhes–Matuyama geomagnetic reversal) there has been a largely unexplained switch in the dominant periodicity of glaciations from the 41 ky to the 100 ky cycle.

The gradual intensification of this ice age over the last 3 million years has been associated with declining concentrations of the greenhouse gas carbon dioxide, though it remains unclear if this change is sufficiently large to have caused the changes in temperatures. Decreased temperatures can cause a decrease in carbon dioxide as, by Henry's Law, carbon dioxide is more soluble in colder waters, which may account for 30ppmv of the 100ppmv decrease in carbon dioxide concentration during the last glacial maximum. [1]

Similarly, the initiation of this deepening phase also corresponds roughly to the closure of the Isthmus of Panama by the action of plate tectonics. This prevented direct ocean flow between the Pacific and Atlantic, which would have had significant effects on ocean circulation and the distribution of heat. However, modeling studies have been ambiguous as to whether this could be the direct cause of the intensification of the present ice age.

This recent period of cycling climate is part of the more extended ice age that began about 40 million years ago with the glaciation of Antarctica.
Since warm water seas flanked both sides of Panama I doubt very much whether the closure of the Darien Gap would have had much of an effect either on ocean circulation or to the earths zones of climate. What would have had more of an impact on both would have been the emergence from below the sea of the broad Beringia land bridge that unified Eurasia and North America into a single unitary continental landmass for as long as the most recent Ice Age lasted.

Why so? Because (firstly) it would have stopped the flow of icy water from the Arctic Sea through Bering Strait into the northern Pacific Ocean. That would have meant a permanent bank-up of icy water within that Sea extending south into the northern Atlantic Ocean as far south as the vicinity of Iceland, The British Isles and Newfoundland - adjacent to where the great northern ice sheets formed and no doubt helping to keep these along with the underlying land masses chilled. And so the Ice Age perpetuated itself.

It also would have meant that on the Pacific side the warm ocean currents that originated in the vicinity of the central Pacific and/or Indonesia would have been forced into a permanent clockwise rotating circulation thanks to Beringia: hence the warmer Ice Age regional climate of eastern Siberia.

But now, what about the south? I have a direct interest in what happened in the Earth's southern half simply because I live there.

Doc's quoted info duly notes that the glaciation of Antarctica began only around 40 million years ago. Prior to 60 million years ago it was part of a larger continental mass known as Gondwana (sometimes as Gondwanaland). Along with Antarctica and fused into it were the landmasses of Australia; New Zealand; India and Madagascar. Another 100 million years or so earlier South America and the southern part of Africa were part of a supercontinent the approximate size of present day Eurasia. Then the mass broke up with tectonic plates carrying different parts of it in a generally northerly direction.

The glaciated island-continent of Antarctica has retained its ice cover even during the relatively warm inter-glacial periods because it is surrounded by the eternally circulating, chill waters of the Southern Ocean. Pushed along from west to east by the eternal westerly winds flowing around our high temperate latitudes the broad drift acts like a barrier that prevents any warm water current from further north to ever penetrate closer than a couple of thousand sea kilometers closer to the Antarctic coast - so there is nothing to warm Antarctica up.

There is no continental land mass closer to interrupt the flow of either air or water until it reaches the Patagonia peninsula of South America; which seems to act like a gigantic snag-hook that diverts the more slow moving northern waters of the drift into the high-speed Humboldt Current along the coast of Chile and Peru. The more southerly waters flow on unimpeded through the strait between Tierra del Fuego and the Antarctic Peninsula.

Australia was apparently the last piece of continent to break away from former Gondwana and drift north - which it has done at high speed ever since. The water filled gap that opened between southern Australia and the adjacent Antarctic coast as it grew wider permitted that circular flow of cold sea water to get underway and sustain itself since.

While Australia was still a large "hump" protruding north from Antarctica (considering that presently Australia, including Tasmania, currently extends from 11 degrees south to 43 degrees south latitude that would have put Australia's most northern extreme in those times at about 34 degrees south of Equator: which is the present day latitude of Sydney) when without a doubt the western coast of that hump would have deflected cold water north towards the Equator while making room for a flow of warm water from more northerly latitudes probably flowing down along its eastern coastline. This would have led to a much more benign, most likely low temperate regional climate for the combined island continent.

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