Aryan Invasion Theory Update

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cassowary
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Re: not just any old river would do.

Post by cassowary » Tue Oct 13, 2020 12:14 am

neverfail wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 1:20 pm
cassowary wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 7:40 am
neverfail wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 4:40 am
cassowary wrote:
Sun Oct 11, 2020 8:56 pm
Surely with 5,000 years of wet weather, a civilization (let's call it Atlantis, as what Herodotus did) would have developed on some of these rivers
Why should it have done so Cass? Is there something automatic about the formation of civilisations?
That's what happened to most major rivers. If it didn't happen in the Tamanrasset or any other major river in the Sahara, then the only thing I can say is that the people there were hopeless. They had 5,000 years and nothing happened.
Hi Cass!

I recall here the old truism that "necessity is the mother of invention."

The point I thought I made in some of my earlier posts was that those first high agrarian civilisations developed alongside rivers flowing through arid regions. In the case of both Egypt (the Nile) and Mesopotamia (The Tigris and Euphatres) there was nothing but waterless desert sprawling away to infinity on either side of these water arteries.

Why was aridity important? Because people with nowhere else to go jamned into these narrow fertile strips with their life-giving waters. With so many vieing for food and other resourcers they could no longer afford to be mere food gatherers but instead had to become food producers or else many would have starved.
That sounds like the Sahara. Even during the humid period, it was still fairly arid. According to the documentary, Doc gave, the Sahara during this period was a Savannah or grassland. It was not lush tropical forest like the Amazon or the Congo.

It was about the same latitude as the Mesopotamian and Indus Valley civilizations. I understand that early civilizations rarely develop in tropical regions because of an abundance of food. Everyday is the same and there was no need to prepare for food scarce periods like Winter. Since the Sahara is about the same latitude (its actually slightly to the south) as Mesopotamia, there is thus a likelihood of seasons.
People who lived in the Sahara during those 5 millenia or so left us some vivid cave paintings depictting the world as they saw it. Most of those cave pictures depict animals - presumably the wild beasts they hunted as prey: though some of the latter paintings depict cattle (native to Asia, not Africa) - indicating a latter day switch of lifestyle from hunters to semi-nomadic herdsmen.

https://www.google.com/search?q=Sahara+ ... NXvOWM2HQM

Not one depicts (say) a farmer pushing a wooden plough drawn by oxen or anything else we would relate to neolithic agriculture. Instead they depict a grassy realm prodigious with fauna. That is the point Cass. The prehistoric inhabitants of this uncharacteristically green Sahara had no incentice to gather together close to rivers as they dwelled in a land of plenty.
No one also depicted a farming scene in the Lascaux caves either.

But that didn't mean that France did not go through the agricultural revolution.
That I am sure is also the likely reason why no high neolithic agrarian civilisation developed along the Missisippi river and its tributories in North America either.
Agreed. But the region around the Mississippi River is wetter. It faces the Gulf of Mexico where winds bring in rain. So it truly was bountiful, unlike the Grasslands of the Sahara during the Humid Period. So, going by your theory, the people would also have congregated near the rivers to get fresh drinking water and agriculture could have developed. Otherwise, they would have died of thirst during the dry season.
The Imp :D

neverfail
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Re: not just any old river would do.

Post by neverfail » Tue Oct 13, 2020 3:42 am

cassowary wrote:
Tue Oct 13, 2020 12:14 am
So, going by your theory, the people would also have congregated near the rivers to get fresh drinking water and agriculture could have developed. Otherwise, they would have died of thirst during the dry season.
Stretches of northern Australia have a tropical savanna rainfall pattern. Not a lot of rivers and no big ones in this region. Yet dotted across our savanna zone are depressed locations where water would collect in the wet season and sustain both fauna and Aboriginals during the dry. Savannas are quite nuanced places. As you approach a neighbouring equatorial rainforest zone the rainy season gets longer and the dry seasons correspondingly shorter; and the vegetation grows denser as jungle. As you draw near the opposing desert region of course the opposite happens so the vegetation reflects declining rainfall by thinning out into a sparse scrubland or miserable tussock grassland.

I cannot think of any savanna region that was one of the earth's several birthplaces of farming - though in nearly all of them where favourable locations and conditions permit it agriculture has long been practiced.
..........................................................................................................................

P.S. If you believe that equatorial rain forested regions are places of abundant food then one day you should walk out into one of them (say, nearby in Malaya or Sumatra) bereft of all of the tools and aids of civilisation and find out for yourself how easy it is to garner sustenance from nature.

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cassowary
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Re: not just any old river would do.

Post by cassowary » Tue Oct 13, 2020 8:01 am

neverfail wrote:
Tue Oct 13, 2020 3:42 am
cassowary wrote:
Tue Oct 13, 2020 12:14 am
So, going by your theory, the people would also have congregated near the rivers to get fresh drinking water and agriculture could have developed. Otherwise, they would have died of thirst during the dry season.
Stretches of northern Australia have a tropical savanna rainfall pattern. Not a lot of rivers and no big ones in this region. Yet dotted across our savanna zone are depressed locations where water would collect in the wet season and sustain both fauna and Aboriginals during the dry. Savannas are quite nuanced places. As you approach a neighbouring equatorial rainforest zone the rainy season gets longer and the dry seasons correspondingly shorter; and the vegetation grows denser as jungle. As you draw near the opposing desert region of course the opposite happens so the vegetation reflects declining rainfall by thinning out into a sparse scrubland or miserable tussock grassland.

I cannot think of any savanna region that was one of the earth's several birthplaces of farming - though in nearly all of them where favourable locations and conditions permit it agriculture has long been practiced.

Well, you could be right, Neverfail. As I admitted before, mine was just speculation that a civilization grew out of the now dried up Tamanrasset River. But I could also be right.

If the nearby Nile could have given birth to Egyptian civilization, why not the Tamanrasset River?
..........................................................................................................................

P.S. If you believe that equatorial rain forested regions are places of abundant food then one day you should walk out into one of them (say, nearby in Malaya or Sumatra) bereft of all of the tools and aids of civilisation and find out for yourself how easy it is to garner sustenance from nature.
Well, I can't survive in such an environment. But there are still primitive tribesmen who can easily find food.
The Imp :D

neverfail
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Re: not just any old river would do.

Post by neverfail » Wed Oct 14, 2020 12:31 am

cassowary wrote:
Tue Oct 13, 2020 8:01 am


If the nearby Nile could have given birth to Egyptian civilization, why not the nearbyr?

Egyptian civilisation seems to have risen coincidentally with the rise of its peer in Mesopotamia. Think about what these two had in common and then think about how the the Tamanrasset River and its surrounds may have differed from these two.

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Apollonius
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Re: Aryan Invasion Theory Update

Post by Apollonius » Wed Oct 14, 2020 7:34 am

cassowary wrote:
Sat Oct 10, 2020 10:05 am
Apollonius wrote:
Fri Oct 09, 2020 2:38 pm
cassowary wrote:
Thu Oct 08, 2020 5:42 pm
I have a question. If the natural state of the Sahara was dry, how did the Tamanrasett River come about?

See my earlier post.


The Tamanrasset River is what we might call a seasonal stream such as are very common in dry climates. In the case of rivers like these the seasons just happen to be thousands of years long.
Thousands of years, you say? Well, that's long enough for a civilization to develop and die. My interest in the Tamanrasset River comes from my speculation that it might have had an ancient lost civilization. You see, I came across an ancient map drawn by Greek historian, Herodotus, who placed the location of Atlantis in roughly the region where the Tamanrasset was once located.

This piqued my interest because during Herodotus lifetime, the Sahara was already a desert. So why did he place Atlantis there? I had come across an article that said that a once mighty river existed in the Sahara. So it dawned on me that it might have spawned humanity's first civilization, which caused Herodotus to locate Atlantis there.

Some ancient knowledge might have survived until Herodotus' time.
The Wikipedia article tells us that the canyon which delineates the location of the ancient Tamanrasset River is three kilometres deep and is 2.5km wide in places. Allow me to question that. The highest mountains in the western Sahara is the Ahaggar Range and its highest peak is Tahat, which reaches an elevation of 3003 metres. The Atlas Mountains are higher but what they are calling a river is more likely simply the difference in elevation between its highest peaks and lowest valleys.


There is no doubt that the river existed and was at times large. Rivers flowing through dry landscapes typically carve deep canyons because lack of vegetation produces severe erosion accentuated and made worse by great fluctuations in water levels due to recurring dry spells and sporadic but none the less sometimes significant rainfall in a very short time.


The Grand Canyon of the Colorado River is the most famous example in North America. Despite rising in the Rocky Mountains, it is not a really huge river measured by volume of water, but it has managed to create an impressive gorge. The coulees of eastern Washington State are an example of the phenomenon I would guess played the major role in creating the landforms which trace the outline of the ancient Tamanrasset River. These were formed when giant walls of water came bursting through ice dams that burst when the glaciers just to the north of the former Lake Missoula drained westward into the Columbia and even though this lake was small by comparison with glacial lakes Agassiz (Manitoba and Saskatchewan) and McConnel (Alberta and Northwest Territory) all that water rushing through the area at once managed to produce impressive spillways and flood channels. Though ice blockages played little or no role in the Sahara large lakes definitely existed there during the humid periods of the Pleistocene and some of them undoubtedly drained rapidly from having unstable (i.e., easily eroded sand and soft sediment bottomed) outlets.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Coulee
About 18,000 years ago a large finger of ice advanced into present-day Idaho, forming an ice dam at what is now Lake Pend Oreille. It blocked the Clark Fork River drainage, thus creating an enormous lake reaching far back into mountain valleys of western Montana. As the lake deepened, the ice began to float. Leaks likely developed and enlarged, causing the dam to fail. The 500 cubic miles (2,100 km3) of water in Lake Missoula were released in just 48 hours—a torrential flood equivalent to ten times the combined flow of all the rivers in the world.

The scoured landscape of the Tamanrasset paleoriver valley:

Image


Eastern Washington coulees created by the Ice Age floods.

Image
Fascinating. I love to learn new things.
Here is a graph which gives some a good indication of relative levels of the Tamanrasset River during the last 250,000 years.


Image
This is where I have difficulty understanding as I don't have the background.

What does Isolation 25 degrees north mean? What does JJA-W.m2 mean? I know m2 means square meters. Same for the next one - Terrigenous flux and all the rest. Its Greek to me. How does all this show the level of the Tamanrasset River? What's S3, S4, S5 etc?

The humidity index is the part of the graph to pay most attention to. Notice that it was almost always as low as at the present or lower, only rarely, notably in the period 9500 BC to 3500 BC, being above what it is now.
Which one is the humidity index?

25 degrees north is simply a reference to latitude.

The humidity index is actually measured from the middle of the graph (that's perhaps a little confusing). It is traced by the sharply zig-zagging blue line which peaks at about 8000 years ago.


Cass,

I put no real stock in Herodotus' story. It might be some dim recollection of the eruption of the volcano at Thera in the Aegean. Plato does call Atlantis an island.

But it's more likely a allegory, a sort of Utopia.


And 'Beyond the Pillars of Hercules' could be anywhere (more likely, nowhere). There have been hundreds (thousands?) of 'theories' about where Atlantis might be. I had a friend back in college. After a stoned conversation with him one night we theorized that Atlantis might be located in Antarctica. I sobered up. My friend went on to write a book about Atlantis in Antarctica.

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Doc
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Re: Aryan Invasion Theory Update

Post by Doc » Wed Oct 14, 2020 10:07 pm

Apollonius wrote:
Wed Oct 14, 2020 7:34 am
cassowary wrote:
Sat Oct 10, 2020 10:05 am
Apollonius wrote:
Fri Oct 09, 2020 2:38 pm
cassowary wrote:
Thu Oct 08, 2020 5:42 pm
I have a question. If the natural state of the Sahara was dry, how did the Tamanrasett River come about?

See my earlier post.


The Tamanrasset River is what we might call a seasonal stream such as are very common in dry climates. In the case of rivers like these the seasons just happen to be thousands of years long.
Thousands of years, you say? Well, that's long enough for a civilization to develop and die. My interest in the Tamanrasset River comes from my speculation that it might have had an ancient lost civilization. You see, I came across an ancient map drawn by Greek historian, Herodotus, who placed the location of Atlantis in roughly the region where the Tamanrasset was once located.

This piqued my interest because during Herodotus lifetime, the Sahara was already a desert. So why did he place Atlantis there? I had come across an article that said that a once mighty river existed in the Sahara. So it dawned on me that it might have spawned humanity's first civilization, which caused Herodotus to locate Atlantis there.

Some ancient knowledge might have survived until Herodotus' time.
The Wikipedia article tells us that the canyon which delineates the location of the ancient Tamanrasset River is three kilometres deep and is 2.5km wide in places. Allow me to question that. The highest mountains in the western Sahara is the Ahaggar Range and its highest peak is Tahat, which reaches an elevation of 3003 metres. The Atlas Mountains are higher but what they are calling a river is more likely simply the difference in elevation between its highest peaks and lowest valleys.


There is no doubt that the river existed and was at times large. Rivers flowing through dry landscapes typically carve deep canyons because lack of vegetation produces severe erosion accentuated and made worse by great fluctuations in water levels due to recurring dry spells and sporadic but none the less sometimes significant rainfall in a very short time.


The Grand Canyon of the Colorado River is the most famous example in North America. Despite rising in the Rocky Mountains, it is not a really huge river measured by volume of water, but it has managed to create an impressive gorge. The coulees of eastern Washington State are an example of the phenomenon I would guess played the major role in creating the landforms which trace the outline of the ancient Tamanrasset River. These were formed when giant walls of water came bursting through ice dams that burst when the glaciers just to the north of the former Lake Missoula drained westward into the Columbia and even though this lake was small by comparison with glacial lakes Agassiz (Manitoba and Saskatchewan) and McConnel (Alberta and Northwest Territory) all that water rushing through the area at once managed to produce impressive spillways and flood channels. Though ice blockages played little or no role in the Sahara large lakes definitely existed there during the humid periods of the Pleistocene and some of them undoubtedly drained rapidly from having unstable (i.e., easily eroded sand and soft sediment bottomed) outlets.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Coulee
About 18,000 years ago a large finger of ice advanced into present-day Idaho, forming an ice dam at what is now Lake Pend Oreille. It blocked the Clark Fork River drainage, thus creating an enormous lake reaching far back into mountain valleys of western Montana. As the lake deepened, the ice began to float. Leaks likely developed and enlarged, causing the dam to fail. The 500 cubic miles (2,100 km3) of water in Lake Missoula were released in just 48 hours—a torrential flood equivalent to ten times the combined flow of all the rivers in the world.

The scoured landscape of the Tamanrasset paleoriver valley:

Image


Eastern Washington coulees created by the Ice Age floods.

Image
Fascinating. I love to learn new things.
Here is a graph which gives some a good indication of relative levels of the Tamanrasset River during the last 250,000 years.


Image
This is where I have difficulty understanding as I don't have the background.

What does Isolation 25 degrees north mean? What does JJA-W.m2 mean? I know m2 means square meters. Same for the next one - Terrigenous flux and all the rest. Its Greek to me. How does all this show the level of the Tamanrasset River? What's S3, S4, S5 etc?

The humidity index is the part of the graph to pay most attention to. Notice that it was almost always as low as at the present or lower, only rarely, notably in the period 9500 BC to 3500 BC, being above what it is now.
Which one is the humidity index?

25 degrees north is simply a reference to latitude.

The humidity index is actually measured from the middle of the graph (that's perhaps a little confusing). It is traced by the sharply zig-zagging blue line which peaks at about 8000 years ago.


Cass,

I put no real stock in Herodotus' story. It might be some dim recollection of the eruption of the volcano at Thera in the Aegean. Plato does call Atlantis an island.

But it's more likely a allegory, a sort of Utopia.


And 'Beyond the Pillars of Hercules' could be anywhere (more likely, nowhere). There have been hundreds (thousands?) of 'theories' about where Atlantis might be. I had a friend back in college. After a stoned conversation with him one night we theorized that Atlantis might be located in Antarctica. I sobered up. My friend went on to write a book about Atlantis in Antarctica.
I hope he didn't freeze :D

There are many myths as well. Some imagine Noah building an ark at the bottom of the black sea. Certainly not much in the way of proof but it is intriguing.
“"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros

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cassowary
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Re: Aryan Invasion Theory Update

Post by cassowary » Thu Oct 15, 2020 7:02 am

Apollonius wrote:
Wed Oct 14, 2020 7:34 am


Cass,

I put no real stock in Herodotus' story. It might be some dim recollection of the eruption of the volcano at Thera in the Aegean. Plato does call Atlantis an island.

But it's more likely a allegory, a sort of Utopia.


And 'Beyond the Pillars of Hercules' could be anywhere (more likely, nowhere). There have been hundreds (thousands?) of 'theories' about where Atlantis might be. I had a friend back in college. After a stoned conversation with him one night we theorized that Atlantis might be located in Antarctica. I sobered up. My friend went on to write a book about Atlantis in Antarctica.
Antartica? Nah. I think my theory is more plausible. Since all early civilizations grew out of rivers, there is a good chance there was one at the Tamanrasset River. Not a certainty, of course. But a distinct possibility. Why not call it Atlantis, as what Herodotus did?

By the way, the mouth of the Tamanrasset was "beyond the Pillars of Hercules". Could there not have been a city near the mouth at one time? Like at Alexandria. Maybe it was built on an Island. Or there might have been an Island in the middle of the river. Like at Marajo.
The Imp :D

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