History

High Culture, Religion, Philosophy and Esoterica.
Jim the Moron
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History

Post by Jim the Moron » Wed Dec 02, 2020 2:25 am

There is evidently an increased interest on this forum of history, which is a good thing. With apologies to Toynbee, I'm offering this outline of seminal historical events (all else is detail).

- History began at Sumer.

- The Lord Buddha strode the earth.

- Jesus Christ died on the cross.

- Mohammad led his first slaughter of infidels.

- Martin Luther refused to recant.

- The US Declaration of Independence was signed.

neverfail
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Re: History

Post by neverfail » Wed Dec 02, 2020 12:59 pm

Allow me to make the following distinction Jim. A people begin to have a history only when among them there are at least some who know how to read and write. After they have acquired a written script either by inventing one of their own (like the Chinese some 3,000 years ago) or by acquiring one from another people who alrerady have one (like the Centic English learning to write in the Latin script from the Romans). People who know how to read and write can and do leave writted records of their observations and experiences behind them for posterity to later study and learn from. Anything that happens before the know-how of writing comes into play counts as prehistory, not history. Prehistoric peoples deal in mythology.

Jim the Moron
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Re: History

Post by Jim the Moron » Wed Dec 02, 2020 2:18 pm

A quite reasonable reply, n'fail. You often provide interesting historical context to forum discussions.

I am addicted to a wonderful, wonderful book by Samuel Noah Kramer titled "History Begins at Sumer." My oft read copy is in my archives (bottled Heineken boxes, once emptied, converted to storing books).

neverfail
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Re: History

Post by neverfail » Thu Dec 03, 2020 9:06 pm

Jim the Moron wrote:
Wed Dec 02, 2020 2:18 pm
A quite reasonable reply, n'fail. You often provide interesting historical context to forum discussions.

I am addicted to a wonderful, wonderful book by Samuel Noah Kramer titled "History Begins at Sumer." My oft read copy is in my archives (bottled Heineken boxes, once emptied, converted to storing books).
I don't know that publication Jim yet thetitle sounds plausable.

Jim the Moron
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Re: History

Post by Jim the Moron » Thu Dec 03, 2020 9:46 pm

neverfail wrote:
Thu Dec 03, 2020 9:06 pm
Jim the Moron wrote:
Wed Dec 02, 2020 2:18 pm
A quite reasonable reply, n'fail. You often provide interesting historical context to forum discussions.

I am addicted to a wonderful, wonderful book by Samuel Noah Kramer titled "History Begins at Sumer." My oft read copy is in my archives (bottled Heineken boxes, once emptied, converted to storing books).
I don't know that publication Jim yet thetitle sounds plausable.
Samuel Noah Kramer
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_Noah_Kramer
The NYT obit linked near the bottom is entertaining . . .

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Apollonius
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Re: History

Post by Apollonius » Sun Dec 20, 2020 6:37 am

neverfail wrote:
Wed Dec 02, 2020 12:59 pm
Allow me to make the following distinction Jim. A people begin to have a history only when among them there are at least some who know how to read and write. After they have acquired a written script either by inventing one of their own (like the Chinese some 3,000 years ago) or by acquiring one from another people who alrerady have one (like the Centic English learning to write in the Latin script from the Romans). People who know how to read and write can and do leave writted records of their observations and experiences behind them for posterity to later study and learn from. Anything that happens before the know-how of writing comes into play counts as prehistory, not history. Prehistoric peoples deal in mythology.

Neverfail,

The Chinese did not invent their own writing system. It came to them from Mesopotamia, same as all other Old World scripts.

neverfail
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Re: History

Post by neverfail » Sun Dec 20, 2020 1:32 pm

Apollonius wrote:
Sun Dec 20, 2020 6:37 am
neverfail wrote:
Wed Dec 02, 2020 12:59 pm
Allow me to make the following distinction Jim. A people begin to have a history only when among them there are at least some who know how to read and write. After they have acquired a written script either by inventing one of their own (like the Chinese some 3,000 years ago) or by acquiring one from another people who alrerady have one (like the Centic English learning to write in the Latin script from the Romans). People who know how to read and write can and do leave writted records of their observations and experiences behind them for posterity to later study and learn from. Anything that happens before the know-how of writing comes into play counts as prehistory, not history. Prehistoric peoples deal in mythology.

Neverfail,

The Chinese did not invent their own writing system. It came to them from Mesopotamia, same as all other Old World scripts.
your evidence?

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lzzrdgrrl
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Re: History

Post by lzzrdgrrl » Sun Dec 20, 2020 5:09 pm

This might be worth an investigation:

Thoth's Pill: an Animated History of Writing

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=P ... t2h6wRasw2
I have a certain notoriety among the lesser gods........

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Apollonius
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Re: History

Post by Apollonius » Sat Jan 09, 2021 12:00 pm

neverfail wrote:
Sun Dec 20, 2020 1:32 pm
Apollonius wrote:
Sun Dec 20, 2020 6:37 am
neverfail wrote:
Wed Dec 02, 2020 12:59 pm
Allow me to make the following distinction Jim. A people begin to have a history only when among them there are at least some who know how to read and write. After they have acquired a written script either by inventing one of their own (like the Chinese some 3,000 years ago) or by acquiring one from another people who alrerady have one (like the Centic English learning to write in the Latin script from the Romans). People who know how to read and write can and do leave writted records of their observations and experiences behind them for posterity to later study and learn from. Anything that happens before the know-how of writing comes into play counts as prehistory, not history. Prehistoric peoples deal in mythology.

Neverfail,

The Chinese did not invent their own writing system. It came to them from Mesopotamia, same as all other Old World scripts.
your evidence?



Most of what made China civilized came to it via Central Asia from the Middle East. This includes wheat, barley, oats, cattle, goats, pigs, sheep, and horses. It also includes techniques for making bronze and iron. The author of the third volume in the History of Imperial China (6 v., Harvard University Press, 2009-2011) which covers the Tang dynasty boldly asserts that, "Tea is the only food crop that originated in China to become part of worldwide cuisine". Yes, even rice appears to have come from somewhere else, and that is certainly true of all varieties grown there now.


If you look on the internet for the origin of Chinese writing you'll likely not get very far. There's not a whole lot said about it apart from references to legends and to Shang oracle bones from around 1500 B.C., i.e., about 1500 years after the adoption of writing in the Middle East and at the same time that chariots and bronze were introduced into China, again long after their adoption on the Steppes and in Europe.


Some scholars have noted specific examples of Chinese characters which parallel those in use in Mesopotamia. I'm not enough of an expert to judge these claims but I do feel comfortable asserting that writing is just one more of the many essential ingredients which originated elsewhere to kick-start Chinese civilization.

neverfail
Posts: 6838
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Location: Singapore

Re: History

Post by neverfail » Sat Jan 09, 2021 12:39 pm

Apollonius wrote:
Sat Jan 09, 2021 12:00 pm
neverfail wrote:
Sun Dec 20, 2020 1:32 pm
Apollonius wrote:
Sun Dec 20, 2020 6:37 am
neverfail wrote:
Wed Dec 02, 2020 12:59 pm
Allow me to make the following distinction Jim. A people begin to have a history only when among them there are at least some who know how to read and write. After they have acquired a written script either by inventing one of their own (like the Chinese some 3,000 years ago) or by acquiring one from another people who alrerady have one (like the Centic English learning to write in the Latin script from the Romans). People who know how to read and write can and do leave writted records of their observations and experiences behind them for posterity to later study and learn from. Anything that happens before the know-how of writing comes into play counts as prehistory, not history. Prehistoric peoples deal in mythology.

Neverfail,

The Chinese did not invent their own writing system. It came to them from Mesopotamia, same as all other Old World scripts.
your evidence?



Most of what made China civilized came to it via Central Asia from the Middle East. This includes wheat, barley, oats, cattle, goats, pigs, sheep, and horses. It also includes techniques for making bronze and iron. The author of the third volume in the History of Imperial China (6 v., Harvard University Press, 2009-2011) which covers the Tang dynasty boldly asserts that, "Tea is the only food crop that originated in China to become part of worldwide cuisine". Yes, even rice appears to have come from somewhere else, and that is certainly true of all varieties grown there now.


If you look on the internet for the origin of Chinese writing you'll likely not get very far. There's not a whole lot said about it apart from references to legends and to Shang oracle bones from around 1500 B.C., i.e., about 1500 years after the adoption of writing in the Middle East and at the same time that chariots and bronze were introduced into China, again long after their adoption on the Steppes and in Europe.


Some scholars have noted specific examples of Chinese characters which parallel those in use in Mesopotamia. I'm not enough of an expert to judge these claims but I do feel comfortable asserting that writing is just one more of the many essential ingredients which originated elsewhere to kick-start Chinese civilization.
It may even be true but nevertheless still beside the point. The point is (or was) that Chinese have had the ability to rerad and write for approx. the past 3,000 years so that makes them an historic, as distinct from prehistoric, people for at least that long.

(To fully appreciate the importance of this you would probably need to, like me, live in the very last corner of the World to emerge from the stone age. Here the paleaolithic is a living memory)

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