US founders did not want democracy

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Doc
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Re: US founders did not want democracy

Post by Doc » Sat May 14, 2022 4:35 pm

cassowary wrote:
Fri May 13, 2022 7:01 pm
neverfail wrote:
Fri May 13, 2022 3:57 pm
Well of course they did not want democracy as we practice it today. No country on Earth at the time had it. The time for democracy based on the one man one vote premise did not arrive until the latter half of the 19th century.

But so what?
The Founders are still regarded as wise men. So you have to ask why they were against democracy and whether the reason still applies today.
They did not want rule by mob. Which is what we have today.
“"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros

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lzzrdgrrl
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Re: US founders did not want democracy

Post by lzzrdgrrl » Sat May 14, 2022 7:05 pm

Talking about France, but largely pertinent for the U.S.A as well........

I'm not a midwit, I'm a demiderp. Says so on the certificate which I just bought.....'>....

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neverfail
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Re: US founders did not want democracy

Post by neverfail » Sat May 14, 2022 11:49 pm

lzzrdgrrl wrote:
Sat May 14, 2022 7:05 pm
Talking about France, but largely pertinent for the U.S.A as well........

It is not democracy that has failed either country. It is politics!

(That along with flawed, defective institutions of government.)

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Re: US founders did not want democracy

Post by lzzrdgrrl » Sun May 15, 2022 8:34 am

neverfail wrote:
Sat May 14, 2022 11:49 pm
It is not democracy that has failed either country. It is politics!

(That along with flawed, defective institutions of government.)
That would be the simple answer - just be better people, but the naïveté of the enlightenment philosophy that informed the American experiment didn't take into account that while all forms of government are bad, democracy, the demos - rule of the people, is especially bad......

Thirty million years of tribal hostility and blood related groups held together by communal shame and authority structures can't be wished away by two hundred years of poets, visionaries and statesmen caught up in the romantic notion of the perfectible man, governed by reason and a benevolent nature......

Cage the Beast, then let the people come out of the cave and organise their lives.......
I'm not a midwit, I'm a demiderp. Says so on the certificate which I just bought.....'>....

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neverfail
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Re: US founders did not want democracy

Post by neverfail » Sun May 15, 2022 9:10 pm

lzzrdgrrl wrote:
Sun May 15, 2022 8:34 am
neverfail wrote:
Sat May 14, 2022 11:49 pm
It is not democracy that has failed either country. It is politics!

(That along with flawed, defective institutions of government.)
That would be the simple answer - just be better people, but the naïveté of the enlightenment philosophy that informed the American experiment didn't take into account that while all forms of government are bad, democracy, the demos - rule of the people, is especially bad......

Thirty million years of tribal hostility and blood related groups held together by communal shame and authority structures can't be wished away by two hundred years of poets, visionaries and statesmen caught up in the romantic notion of the perfectible man, governed by reason and a benevolent nature......

Cage the Beast, then let the people come out of the cave and organise their lives.......
Frankly I don't follow your reasoning Izz.

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Re: US founders did not want democracy

Post by lzzrdgrrl » Tue May 17, 2022 11:29 am

Separate power from the people and give it to an authority that serves the people but listens to God, so to speak. This may be a unrealisable pipe dream, but it's less delusional than a shaken jar of scorpions which is what democracy - even limited democracy - usually turns out to be.....

Or, maybe like socialism in Sweden, it works but you have to commit to it. How do we get a nation of well over 300 million people to put a curb on their outsized ambitions and desires to remake the whole society to their ends at the expense of everybody else? How do we curb lust for power and retribution......

It would take quite a psychic hair-cut to make people fit for representative democracy. It would be less of one to fit an enlightened authoritarian regime or a monarchy with a supporting parliament - IMHO....'>.....
I'm not a midwit, I'm a demiderp. Says so on the certificate which I just bought.....'>....

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Re: US founders did not want democracy

Post by neverfail » Tue May 17, 2022 5:05 pm

lzzrdgrrl wrote:
Tue May 17, 2022 11:29 am
Separate power from the people and give it to an authority that serves the people but listens to God, so to speak. This may be a unrealisable pipe dream, but it's less delusional than a shaken jar of scorpions which is what democracy - even limited democracy - usually turns out to be.....
Thanks for your reply which clarifies things nicely. lzzrdgrrl, politics is a dirty game is a truism that applies everywhere in the world without exception. If politics in your country seem especially ugly, being pursued with greater zeal and enthusiasm, the reason may well be because the stakes are so much higher over there.
Or, maybe like socialism in Sweden, it works but you have to commit to it. How do we get a nation of well over 300 million people to put a curb on their outsized ambitions and desires to remake the whole society to their ends at the expense of everybody else? How do we curb lust for power and retribution......
The Nordic countries are demographically rather small with Sweden having but 9 million inhabitants and Norway and Denmark around 5 million each. They are also reasonably homogenous. I have a theory (as a broad, imperfect rule) that " the bigger and more diverse the population, the more difficult to manage and the more remote from society the government tends to become".

Lust for power? There is another truism out here that goes "you cannot do much from Opposition". My observation of politicians and politics over the years is that yes, the worst of them are self-serving but on the whole (reflecting varying degrees and nuances of commitment to the public good) they want to achieve something good for posterity and leave that behind as their legacy. Unfortunately they disagree over what is best for society at large so there is competition for support even over that.
It would take quite a psychic hair-cut to make people fit for representative democracy. It would be less of one to fit an enlightened authoritarian regime or a monarchy with a supporting parliament - IMHO....'>.....

Yes lzzrdgrrl. I have long been of the opinion that your US system of government (which I presume is what you are referring to when you mention "representative government" ) is long overdue for an overhall (and I have mentioned that more than once in my posts on this website). Why (for instance) do the rules compel members of the US House of Representatives to serve only 2 year terms before they have to stand for re-election? Considering the cost it is no wonder that a lot of them put themselves into hock to monied corporate interests who of course anticipate favours in return for their electioneering slush fund donations? As I see it extending terms in office to 4 years apiece (like that of the President) might not entirely eliminate "money politics" from the scene but I believe that it would considerably reduce its power.

That is but one of multiple moves I could suggest to reform government in the US. The Catch-22 question is '"can you trust the reformers to do the right thing?"

.......................................................................................................................................

We are in the final throes of an election campaign out here and with polls showing the government as having lost support the government side have been throwing mud at the party in Opposition like I have rarely witnessed in the past. The Opposition has largely abstained from throwing mud back but has still employed spin'; both to exaggerate the likely benefits of its own policies and to discredit the government's. We will all be glad when election day comes this Saturday when we can cast our ballets thereby be relieved of all this B/S (at least until the parliamentary term begins again) :)

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Re: US founders did not want democracy

Post by lzzrdgrrl » Tue May 17, 2022 10:21 pm

Thank you for your well considered response, neverfail. Now I know where you're coming from....^^......
I'm not a midwit, I'm a demiderp. Says so on the certificate which I just bought.....'>....

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