The Real Jesus Christ

High Culture, Religion, Philosophy and Esoterica.
Jim the Moron
Posts: 1962
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Re: The Real Jesus Christ

Post by Jim the Moron » Wed Oct 07, 2020 12:57 pm

"All Paul did was to lower the qualifying standards of becoming a Christian . . ." (Uche)

"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved, and thy house." (Acts 16:31)

neverfail
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Location: Singapore

Re: The Real Jesus Christ

Post by neverfail » Wed Oct 07, 2020 3:37 pm

uche africanus wrote:
Wed Oct 07, 2020 11:43 am
All Paul did was to lower the qualifying standards of becoming a Christian but it is hard to argue against that seeing that the foundational message of Christ teachings from the Sermon on the Mountain to his asking the Samaritan for water to drink when Jewish laws proscribed such interaction, was and remains one of universalism. He promised salvation to all on Judgement day who follow his way, a universal promise of redemption.
Well put, Uche.

Prior to Christ the worship of the one true God had been exclusively the perogative of the chosen people but Paul's decision to "walk in Christ's footsteps" and make that recognition and practice available to all receptive gentiles opened the door to redemption for all.

Paul in effect "democraticised" access to God.

Good to know that you have an interest in this topic. :D

uche africanus
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Re: The Real Jesus Christ

Post by uche africanus » Wed Oct 07, 2020 5:42 pm

Jim.
Paul mediated the requirement of circumcision for converts to the Christian faith. That was the point I was making about Paul lowering the standards to become a Christian. I’m almost certain that a lot gentiles who came in their multitude to the faith would have been dissuaded from even opening the door to the church.

Paul was a man of spirit who was brought forward for the needs of the new Christians. His role was the expansion of the new Christian faith and he succeeded at that. Paul understood the universalism of Christ’s teachings and sought to bring that universalism to fruition.

neverfail
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Re: The Real Jesus Christ

Post by neverfail » Wed Oct 07, 2020 7:58 pm

uche africanus wrote:
Wed Oct 07, 2020 12:07 pm
Sertorio,
It is clear that your long absence from from the Christian faith and especially your renunciation of the Magisterium, the Catholic Church has left you largely uninformed of the teachings of the Divine One, the prophets and of church doctrine.
:lol:

Uche. Not unusual for even reasonably devout, practicing Catholics in southern Europe to be "largely uninformed of the teachings of the Divine One, the prophets and of church doctrine." In countries like Sertorio's only the sons of the rich and powerful normally get to have a formal religious education. Everyone else is supposed to acquire his faith and its practice from the society around them (i.e. from local tradition). Apart from the risk that this leaves the door wide open for bizzarre ideas and practices to creep in as society changes it also tends to turn the Catholic faithful into opponents of change while alienating others who are aware of injustices that cry out for remedy; change that needs to be promoted for society's good. So there has been a broad tendency for these latter to "throw away the baby with the bathwater" by rejecting the Church totally as a bulwark for reaction turning instead to atheism, freemasonry and (up until the most recent generation) Communism. In other words it ends up becoming a class/political conflict thing.

beatnik
Posts: 11
Joined: Wed Sep 23, 2020 12:22 pm

Re: The Real Jesus Christ

Post by beatnik » Tue Oct 20, 2020 1:24 pm

Sertorio wrote:
Sat Oct 03, 2020 3:33 pm
neverfail wrote:
Sat Oct 03, 2020 2:56 pm
Sertorio wrote:
Sat Oct 03, 2020 11:01 am
If Christianism is a critique of Judaism, then Jesus has nothing to do with it and Christianism should look for another figurehead. Maybe Saul of Tarsus...
What an inane comment Sertorio!

Jesus was very much a critic of the conventional Judism of his day and you cannot disconnect Christ from Christianity.

Even you can do better.
Jesus doctrine was strictly Jewish, and messianic - as was typical of his time - and if there was criticism it was of the Hellenist influence on Judaism. Jesus claimed to be the Messiah, but definitely not God. For a Jew, Son of the Lord doesn't mean being a "genetic" son of God. We aren't even sure he actually claimed he would resurrect after death, or that he would be raised to Heaven. At least in any different way from the way some of the Prophets were believed to have been raised to Heaven. Most of the things we consider as the doctrine of Jesus was made up by Paul, and that's why Christianity chore doctrine has nothing to do with Jesus preaching. It was no accident that the main group of the followers of Jesus, after his death, assembled in Jerusalem, under the leadership of James the Just, a brother of Jesus, who regularly prayed at the Temple. James, who strongly fought Paul's attempts at reinventing the doctrine taught by Jesus. The destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple forced that central group of Jesus followers to run away, and allowed Paul - as a Roman citizen - to move the center of the "Church" to Rome and start converting Gentiles. And that's how Christianity, as we know it, was created. Without Paul's "coup", Christians would have remained part of Judaism, and we don't even know whether it would have survived much longer as an independent movement.
Apropos, Leonard Cohen was a fan of non-Pauline Christianity.

"Leonard also had a genuine interest in Christianity,” adds Posner. “The Christianity he was interested in though isn’t Pauline Christianity. It’s the original Jesus Christianity, Jesus the Jew Christianity, the sermon on the mount, that kind of stuff.

"Those early Christians were all Jews, and they articulated a way of living and way of thinking that Leonard related to..."

See https://www.timesofisrael.com/not-every ... roubadour/

neverfail
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Re: The Real Jesus Christ

Post by neverfail » Wed Oct 21, 2020 12:20 am

beatnik wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 1:24 pm

"Leonard also had a genuine interest in Christianity,” adds Posner. “The Christianity he was interested in though isn’t Pauline Christianity. It’s the original Jesus Christianity, Jesus the Jew Christianity, the sermon on the mount, that kind of stuff.

"Those early Christians were all Jews, and they articulated a way of living and way of thinking that Leonard related to..."
Actions speak louder than words (or provclaimed teachings).

What about Jesus nailed to the cross? Would Leonard (whoever he was) have gladly followed Jesus up there?

Some of the early Christinas suffered exactly that fate.

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