Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

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Sertorio
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Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

Post by Sertorio » Sat Jul 14, 2018 5:09 am

cassowary wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 2:40 am

What is the 8th commandment?

Thou Shalt not Steal.
Interesting. You probably will agree that productivity gains in a firm result from the efforts of both workers and capitalists, but what we have seen in the last couple of decades is that productivity gains are almost 100% taken over by capital, leaving nothing for the workers. In my view that is stealing, but you do not seem to have any problems with that.

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As you see, labour benefits next to nothing from productivity gains, which means that they all go to benefit capital.

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cassowary
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Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

Post by cassowary » Sat Jul 14, 2018 5:59 am

Sertorio wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 5:09 am
cassowary wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 2:40 am

What is the 8th commandment?

Thou Shalt not Steal.
Interesting. You probably will agree that productivity gains in a firm result from the efforts of both workers and capitalists, but what we have seen in the last couple of decades is that productivity gains are almost 100% taken over by capital, leaving nothing for the workers. In my view that is stealing, but you do not seem to have any problems with that.

Image

Image

As you see, labour benefits next to nothing from productivity gains, which means that they all go to benefit capital.
Do you know which country these statistics are from? It can't be from China and other Third World countries.

That's because of China opening up. Wages are depressed because jobs are being shipped overseas by outsourcing. Trump's protectionism, which I disagree with, will boost wages in his country.

Capitalists are not stealing anyone's wages. Money flows in accordance to supply and demand.

You did not answer my yes or no questions.

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cassowary
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American workers quitting for better paying jobs.

Post by cassowary » Sat Jul 14, 2018 5:32 pm

http://thehill.com/opinion/finance/3965 ... ing-i-quit

Thanks to the Trump tax cuts, deregulation and crackdown on illegals, US workers are getting better pay.

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Milo
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Re: American workers quitting for better paying jobs.

Post by Milo » Sat Jul 14, 2018 7:53 pm

cassowary wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 5:32 pm
http://thehill.com/opinion/finance/3965 ... ing-i-quit

Thanks to the Trump tax cuts, deregulation and crackdown on illegals, US workers are getting better pay.
OR is it thanks to Trump's tariffs and the billions in government grants given to business: socialist policies?

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cassowary
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Re: American workers quitting for better paying jobs.

Post by cassowary » Sat Jul 14, 2018 9:06 pm

Milo wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 7:53 pm
cassowary wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 5:32 pm
http://thehill.com/opinion/finance/3965 ... ing-i-quit

Thanks to the Trump tax cuts, deregulation and crackdown on illegals, US workers are getting better pay.
OR is it thanks to Trump's tariffs and the billions in government grants given to business: socialist policies?
Tariffs also help. I am not aware of grants Trump gave to business.

The trouble with tariffs is that it makes stuff more expensive. Middle class wages may have stagnated for many years because of free trade but stuff got cheaper.

neverfail
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Re: American workers quitting for better paying jobs.

Post by neverfail » Sat Jul 14, 2018 10:09 pm

cassowary wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 9:06 pm
Milo wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 7:53 pm
cassowary wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 5:32 pm
http://thehill.com/opinion/finance/3965 ... ing-i-quit

Thanks to the Trump tax cuts, deregulation and crackdown on illegals, US workers are getting better pay.
OR is it thanks to Trump's tariffs and the billions in government grants given to business: socialist policies?
Tariffs also help. I am not aware of grants Trump gave to business.

The trouble with tariffs is that it makes stuff more expensive. Middle class wages may have stagnated for many years because of free trade but stuff got cheaper.
Not any longer. Tariff protection, especially at it relates to imports from China, is bound to reduce the real wage earnings of employees in the US further still.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/won ... bdfe739b0d

By the way, who made that silly suggestion that US workers are currently getting better pay? In real terms it is not true.

Anticipate recession in 2019.

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cassowary
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Re: American workers quitting for better paying jobs.

Post by cassowary » Sat Jul 14, 2018 11:07 pm

neverfail wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 10:09 pm
cassowary wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 9:06 pm
Milo wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 7:53 pm
cassowary wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 5:32 pm
http://thehill.com/opinion/finance/3965 ... ing-i-quit

Thanks to the Trump tax cuts, deregulation and crackdown on illegals, US workers are getting better pay.
OR is it thanks to Trump's tariffs and the billions in government grants given to business: socialist policies?
Tariffs also help. I am not aware of grants Trump gave to business.

The trouble with tariffs is that it makes stuff more expensive. Middle class wages may have stagnated for many years because of free trade but stuff got cheaper.
Not any longer. Tariff protection, especially at it relates to imports from China, is bound to reduce the real wage earnings of employees in the US further still.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/won ... bdfe739b0d

By the way, who made that silly suggestion that US workers are currently getting better pay? In real terms it is not true.
According to your link, that's because of rising gas prices which is something beyond Trump's control and certainly not due to his policies. In fact, his encouragement of more drilling and withdrawal from the Paris Accord ameliorated the effects of rising gas prices. Gas prices would have risen even more had Trump continued oBUMa's anti-fossil fuel policies.

As it is, wages improved 2.8% while inflation rose 2.9%. Without his tax cuts and deregulation, wages would have remained the same. Without his encouragement of the fossil fuel production, inflation would have been higher because gas prices would have been higher.

We probably would be in recession by now had a President Clinton continued oBUMa's policies.

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Sertorio
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Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

Post by Sertorio » Sun Jul 15, 2018 12:41 am

Wages will not go up unless workers are unionized or unemployment falls below 3.5%.
A collapse in the rate of union membership for private-sector employees — to 6.5 percent last year from the upper teens in the early 1980s — appears to have played a key role in holding down wages.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/201 ... arket.html
Another reason for poor growth of wages are the so-called "noncompete clauses":
In contract law, a non-compete clause (often NCC), or covenant not to compete (CNC), is a clause under which one party (usually an employee) agrees not to enter into or start a similar profession or trade in competition against another party (usually the employer). Some courts refer to these as "restrictive covenants." As a contract provision, a CNC is bound by traditional contract requirements including the consideration doctrine.

The use of such clauses is premised on the possibility that upon their termination or resignation, an employee might begin working for a competitor or starting a business, and gain competitive advantage by exploiting confidential information about their former employer's operations or trade secrets, or sensitive information such as customer/client lists, business practices, upcoming products, and marketing plans.

However, an over-broad CNC may prevent an employee from working elsewhere at all.

(...)

The majority of U.S. states recognize and enforce various forms of non-compete agreements. A few states, such as California, Montana, North Dakota, and Oklahoma, totally ban non-compete agreements for employees, or prohibit all non-compete agreements except in limited circumstances. For this reason, non-compete agreements have been popular among companies with employees working in states where they are allowed.

(...)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-compete_clause
But I'm sure Cass will not mind such restraint on trade clauses, as they favour capitalists...
Last edited by Sertorio on Sun Jul 15, 2018 12:59 am, edited 1 time in total.

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cassowary
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Trofim Lysenko

Post by cassowary » Sun Jul 15, 2018 12:54 am

My discussions with Sertorio basically boils down to the old nature vs nurture debate. I argued that human nature is such that makes Socialism impossible to succeed. Sertorio thinks that human beings can be nurtured into selfless caring people who will put aside personal ambitions for the collective good of the society.

This discussion reminded me of Trofim Lysenko who tried to apply Socialist ideology to plants. Lysenko did not believe in genes because the implication is that Socialism does not work.

If human beings are selfish, the Socialists claim, it is because they grew up in a capitalist society. If we change the environment, we can nurture people to be selfless because there is no such thing as an unyielding, unchangeable human nature. Applying this to plants, it means that oranges can be made to grow in Siberia. That's what Trofim Lysenko believed.

Excerpt from link:
Lysenko, undeterred, was soon bragging about growing orange trees in Siberia, ...
Needless to say, his crackpot ideas caused mass starvation. Scientists who disagreed with him were shot.

So trying to make Socialism work is like trying to make oranges grow in Siberia. :lol: :lol: :lol:

neverfail
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Re: rather, American workers are copping it in the neck again.

Post by neverfail » Sun Jul 15, 2018 4:48 am

cassowary wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 11:07 pm


According to your link, that's because of rising gas prices which is something beyond Trump's control and certainly not due to his policies. In fact, his encouragement of more drilling and withdrawal from the Paris Accord ameliorated the effects of rising gas prices. Gas prices would have risen even more had Trump continued oBUMa's anti-fossil fuel policies.

As it is, wages improved 2.8% while inflation rose 2.9%. Without his tax cuts and deregulation, wages would have remained the same. Without his encouragement of the fossil fuel production, inflation would have been higher because gas prices would have been higher.

We probably would be in recession by now had a President Clinton continued oBUMa's policies.
I don't care about Hillary Clinton. She is not the incumbent president and therefore cannot be held to account for the current impasse.

The Trump tax cuts are a one off hit whose effect will have come and gone within the year. Not a policy that can ensure permanent economic improvement for years to come. Also, inadequate compensation I believe for years of previous erosion in the spending power of the public.

Not to mention of courser that the tax cuts are only going to add further to the already large US public debt placing their Treasury even more in hock to foreign lenders.

Trump's silly tit for tat tariff imposts on trading partners like China and the EU is bound to further erode the real incomes of American wage and salary earners with added inflationary pressures. Brilliant move! :(

Meantime, why is Trump attempting to drive Iran out of the oil export trade? Don't you think that this is putting upward pressures on the world price of oil?

No, of course you probably wouldn't cassowary. I know you from way back as being so incorrigibly partisan biased that you would likely make excuses for the serial policy blunders any nutter in political power as long as he wore the ideological livery of the right.

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