Brilliant Observation

Discussion of current events
Jim the Moron
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Re: Brilliant Observation

Post by Jim the Moron » Fri Jul 06, 2018 4:41 pm

neverfail wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 3:52 pm
lzzrdgrrl wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 4:47 pm
Hierarchies exist. They are a valid expression of reality.......

Hierarchies of values are that there are better things and worse things and a lot of thinking people do is either to avoid making these judgments or to render them unnecessary. Let's define evil as the desire to bring suffering and misery for its own sake, upon others and self simply for being. Resentment and retribution are often attributed towards evil motives and acts, but they are legitimate entities that can be negotiated and reasoned with. Simple evil cannot. Simple evil may be rare in social human actions but it does exist. Keeping evil as a concept within the frame preserves its perspective and lets us be wise and not gullible......
Are these your own original thoughts Izz? If they are then you have made the most brilliant observation :D we are likely to see in this discussion.
They are, of course, her own thoughts. But what if they weren't? Would that make them any less brilliant?

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SteveFoerster
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Re: Brilliant Observation

Post by SteveFoerster » Fri Jul 06, 2018 4:54 pm

Doc wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 1:48 pm
SteveFoerster wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 5:30 am
Doc wrote:
Tue Jun 26, 2018 4:39 pm
That people tend to overrate the evil of those with whom they disagree does not mean evil doesn't exist.
I have gotten a lot of denials over this. One insisting that it could not be true because the boy is from COsta Rica and no one comes to the US from Costa Rica legally since Costa Rica has such a progressive immigration policy.

When presented with a link to an article that completely refused his belief his response was "That is horrible" Or something to that effect. HE thought he was making a "good" argument then after he realized he wasn't he disappeared. Cognitive dissonance As Dilbert creator Scot Adams like to mention a lot seems to explain the behavior.

AS for the little boy the story is something like this His mother is working illegally in the US She sent several thousand dollars to Costa Rica to pay the boy's "Uncle" to bring him to the US through Mexico SO he dropped off the boy on that desert road expecting ICE to find him and take him to safety. Then the "Uncle" turned around and went straight back to Costa Rica. Probably to pick up another of his nephews to bring to the US.

ICE found the boy and sent him on to his mother. Imagine that The Federal government completing the job of a human trafficker free of charge.

Had the mother send him like that from three states away she would have been arrested for Child endangerment. Cognitive dissonance must be a really powerful drug.
Hey man, I was just talking about the quote! :ugeek:
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Doc
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Re: Brilliant Observation

Post by Doc » Fri Jul 06, 2018 5:27 pm

SteveFoerster wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 4:54 pm
Doc wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 1:48 pm
SteveFoerster wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 5:30 am
Doc wrote:
Tue Jun 26, 2018 4:39 pm
That people tend to overrate the evil of those with whom they disagree does not mean evil doesn't exist.
I have gotten a lot of denials over this. One insisting that it could not be true because the boy is from COsta Rica and no one comes to the US from Costa Rica legally since Costa Rica has such a progressive immigration policy.

When presented with a link to an article that completely refused his belief his response was "That is horrible" Or something to that effect. HE thought he was making a "good" argument then after he realized he wasn't he disappeared. Cognitive dissonance As Dilbert creator Scot Adams like to mention a lot seems to explain the behavior.

AS for the little boy the story is something like this His mother is working illegally in the US She sent several thousand dollars to Costa Rica to pay the boy's "Uncle" to bring him to the US through Mexico SO he dropped off the boy on that desert road expecting ICE to find him and take him to safety. Then the "Uncle" turned around and went straight back to Costa Rica. Probably to pick up another of his nephews to bring to the US.

ICE found the boy and sent him on to his mother. Imagine that The Federal government completing the job of a human trafficker free of charge.

Had the mother send him like that from three states away she would have been arrested for Child endangerment. Cognitive dissonance must be a really powerful drug.
Hey man, I was just talking about the quote! :ugeek:
Oh now you went and did it :P

This is kind of personal for me. I have had a lot of good times with my friends in Mexico over the years. Some of the most rip up fun parties I have ever been to. I have been to Tamaulipas many more times than I can count. I used to drive Fed hwy 101 several times a year. A few years ago I saw a video of a boy being cut up by the Gulf Cartel outside a city called CD Mante. The kid was probably a lookout for the Zetas I am not 100% sure, but there is a good chance I knew him when he was little as Mante was one of the places I would spend long weekends at. The kids in the town would be all over the streets and as an American I was kind of novel to them. I generally don't go on the tours when I go outside the US, as I enjoy local cultures and am a bit of an amateur anthropologist. And I get along with people pretty well.

After 2006 it started getting dangerous to travel in Mexico by car Actually it was always dangerous but the danger went up by magnitudes as teh Narco Terrorists became ever more violent.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexican_F ... ighway_101
"'The Highway of Death'

The highway is known by local residents as the 'Highway of Death.'[4] Those who traveled through this highway in 2010 and 2011 used to see "burned vehicles, bullet-shot trucks on the side of the road, and dead bodies, often decapitated, that the cartels would leave behind."[5] Others who have traveled through this highway and have survived car hijackings and checkpoints the organized crime groups have installed from Padilla to San Fernando have confessed what happens on the highway.[4] A man who managed to survive a hijacking confesses on what he saw:

"There were four SUVs, all grey and with tinted windows. Everyone was armed."[6]

The violence and constant car hijackings have been so bad that buses lines avoid Fed. 101 by driving out miles away to avoid the road.[6] Another report from a woman who survived a hijacking said through El Universal newspaper that heavily armed men would stop buses at roadblocks, and then force women and young girls at gunpoint, "strip them naked, rape them," and then drive away in trucks, leaving the passengers traumatized.[6] One bus driver, "who said he had avoided being stopped thus far," claimed that another bus driver at the station had said that 12 people were pulled down of the passenger bus just 30 minutes before him.[6] Other witnesses claim that once the buses were stopped, gunmen would storm the bus and point at certain passengers and say "you, you're coming down," and take them at gunpoint.[4] The buses were then ordered to leave.[4]

During normal times, Fed. 101 is the biggest and most important transportation system in the state of Tamaulipas, and it connects the state with Matamoros, Tamaulipas and Texas with the rest of Tamaulipas.[7] Local residents mention that there is only traffic on this highway during daylight.[5] As of 2012, they mention that the cartels "still kill people in San Fernando."[5] The United States has issued travel warnings south of the border.[8] "
I liked San Fernando in particular. Great little family restaurant with great food there. But even in the bigger cities the violence at times is intense. People from Tampico tell me about having to lay on the floor of their homes for up to 10 hours at a time while the drug cartels shoot it out with the police and the marines. Bullets hitting their home the whole time.

As dangerous as 101 is there is a road that vears away from it and head to Tampico and Veracruz Highway 180 that is even more dangerous about 70 miles of nothing where at night people would regularly get robbed when debris get thrown in the road to force cars to stop.

And this is what people in this country are encouraging people in Central America to travel cheap through. Many with their kids or their kids traveling alone. Ignorance by itself can be evil...
“"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros

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lzzrdgrrl
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Re: Brilliant Observation

Post by lzzrdgrrl » Fri Jul 06, 2018 11:29 pm

Jim the Moron wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 4:41 pm
neverfail wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 3:52 pm
lzzrdgrrl wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 4:47 pm
Hierarchies exist. They are a valid expression of reality.......

Hierarchies of values are that there are better things and worse things and a lot of thinking people do is either to avoid making these judgments or to render them unnecessary. Let's define evil as the desire to bring suffering and misery for its own sake, upon others and self simply for being. Resentment and retribution are often attributed towards evil motives and acts, but they are legitimate entities that can be negotiated and reasoned with. Simple evil cannot. Simple evil may be rare in social human actions but it does exist. Keeping evil as a concept within the frame preserves its perspective and lets us be wise and not gullible......
Are these your own original thoughts Izz? If they are then you have made the most brilliant observation :D we are likely to see in this discussion.
They are, of course, her own thoughts. But what if they weren't? Would that make them any less brilliant?
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I have a certain notoriety among the lesser gods........

neverfail
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Re: Brilliant Observation

Post by neverfail » Sat Jul 07, 2018 1:01 am

Nope!

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lzzrdgrrl
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Re: Brilliant Observation

Post by lzzrdgrrl » Sat Jul 07, 2018 11:34 am

We're skating on the edge here, but we can unpack this a bit further:
".....Resentment and retribution are often attributed towards evil motives and acts, but they are legitimate entities that can be negotiated and reasoned with......"
Jordan Peterson pounds a copy of Gulag and decries resentment and lust for revenge as manifestations of evil, but they at least recognise a cause, an agent for cause and a notion of justice which suggests a means of making right is possible. Pure evil is primarily destruction of things which are an affront to the self..... what comes after, or what purpose or values are served, are incidentals. Things that may be values and purposes for the evil may be cherished by the evil, and may drive action, but they will only exist within that self and will never manifest with serious intent in the real world. If they do, that would be incidental......

Said by many and not questioned by me is that evil of a high calibre is narcissistic and anti-life. All order, purpose and values not ordained by the self are anathema to it and must be changed or blotted out. As above, everything for the narcissist is self referential; but whether the narcissist will participate in social communion with others or not at all determines the depth of evil. (JBP speaks of a high purity drive in the postmodern SJW set, an all-or-nothing attitude which makes negotiation or compromise impossible) Pure evil does not want to play any game by any rules, even its own body is an other to itself, so the one option is to flip the table. Completely.......

So, pure evil, a criterion - visualise a Venn diagram of two regions, one, all the things a creature can want in the world, and two, all the things that exist in the world. If the regions overlap, then the creature may be evil, but not beyond the pale. If the regions don't overlap - watch out........
I have a certain notoriety among the lesser gods........

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Doc
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Re: Brilliant Observation

Post by Doc » Wed Jul 11, 2018 2:15 pm

lzzrdgrrl wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 11:34 am
We're skating on the edge here, but we can unpack this a bit further:
".....Resentment and retribution are often attributed towards evil motives and acts, but they are legitimate entities that can be negotiated and reasoned with......"
Jordan Peterson pounds a copy of Gulag and decries resentment and lust for revenge as manifestations of evil, but they at least recognise a cause, an agent for cause and a notion of justice which suggests a means of making right is possible. Pure evil is primarily destruction of things which are an affront to the self..... what comes after, or what purpose or values are served, are incidentals. Things that may be values and purposes for the evil may be cherished by the evil, and may drive action, but they will only exist within that self and will never manifest with serious intent in the real world. If they do, that would be incidental......

Said by many and not questioned by me is that evil of a high calibre is narcissistic and anti-life. All order, purpose and values not ordained by the self are anathema to it and must be changed or blotted out. As above, everything for the narcissist is self referential; but whether the narcissist will participate in social communion with others or not at all determines the depth of evil. (JBP speaks of a high purity drive in the postmodern SJW set, an all-or-nothing attitude which makes negotiation or compromise impossible) Pure evil does not want to play any game by any rules, even its own body is an other to itself, so the one option is to flip the table. Completely.......

So, pure evil, a criterion - visualise a Venn diagram of two regions, one, all the things a creature can want in the world, and two, all the things that exist in the world. If the regions overlap, then the creature may be evil, but not beyond the pale. If the regions don't overlap - watch out........
“"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros

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Doc
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Re: Brilliant Observation

Post by Doc » Fri Aug 31, 2018 4:50 pm

lzzrdgrrl wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 4:47 pm
Hierarchies exist. They are a valid expression of reality.......

Hierarchies of values are that there are better things and worse things and a lot of thinking people do is either to avoid making these judgments or to render them unnecessary. Let's define evil as the desire to bring suffering and misery for its own sake, upon others and self simply for being. Resentment and retribution are often attributed towards evil motives and acts, but they are legitimate entities that can be negotiated and reasoned with. Simple evil cannot. Simple evil may be rare in social human actions but it does exist. Keeping evil as a concept within the frame preserves its perspective and lets us be wise and not gullible......
Most evil is perpetuated by people that sincerely believe they are doing good 99.9% (or something like that) are only willing to do things they consider "good" That is how the pseudo science of eugenics convinced a large portion of the German people that it was "good" to kill "inferior" peoples, as it is nature's way that only the "strong" survive.

“The further a society drifts from truth the more it will hate those who speak it.” … George Orwell
“"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros

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lzzrdgrrl
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Re: Brilliant Observation

Post by lzzrdgrrl » Fri Aug 31, 2018 8:59 pm

Doc wrote:
Fri Aug 31, 2018 4:50 pm
lzzrdgrrl wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 4:47 pm
Hierarchies exist. They are a valid expression of reality.......

Hierarchies of values are that there are better things and worse things and a lot of thinking people do is either to avoid making these judgments or to render them unnecessary. Let's define evil as the desire to bring suffering and misery for its own sake, upon others and self simply for being. Resentment and retribution are often attributed towards evil motives and acts, but they are legitimate entities that can be negotiated and reasoned with. Simple evil cannot. Simple evil may be rare in social human actions but it does exist. Keeping evil as a concept within the frame preserves its perspective and lets us be wise and not gullible......
Most evil is perpetuated by people that sincerely believe they are doing good 99.9% (or something like that) are only willing to do things they consider "good" That is how the pseudo science of eugenics convinced a large portion of the German people that it was "good" to kill "inferior" peoples, as it is nature's way that only the "strong" survive.

“The further a society drifts from truth the more it will hate those who speak it.” … George Orwell
When you look at the colloquial notion of 'good' it's more of a screen for other psycho-emotional impulses. Jonathan Haidt and Jesse Graham posit the moral foundation theory. The foundations have a good vs. bad aspect - Care/Harm, Fairness/Cheating, ... and Sanctity/Degradation. That last one is the strongest for many people, often it's formulated as Purity/Disgust. Moral foundations are compounded by social and cultural cohesion. Now, you can call 'eugenics' a pseudoscience where it's motivated by beliefs and desires rather than theory and fact. Notably 'inferior' people are difficult, frustrating and just plain yucky to deal with. I think we can dismiss that notion of 'good'.........
I have a certain notoriety among the lesser gods........

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Doc
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Re: Brilliant Observation

Post by Doc » Sat Sep 01, 2018 11:16 am

lzzrdgrrl wrote:
Fri Aug 31, 2018 8:59 pm
Doc wrote:
Fri Aug 31, 2018 4:50 pm
lzzrdgrrl wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 4:47 pm
Hierarchies exist. They are a valid expression of reality.......

Hierarchies of values are that there are better things and worse things and a lot of thinking people do is either to avoid making these judgments or to render them unnecessary. Let's define evil as the desire to bring suffering and misery for its own sake, upon others and self simply for being. Resentment and retribution are often attributed towards evil motives and acts, but they are legitimate entities that can be negotiated and reasoned with. Simple evil cannot. Simple evil may be rare in social human actions but it does exist. Keeping evil as a concept within the frame preserves its perspective and lets us be wise and not gullible......
Most evil is perpetuated by people that sincerely believe they are doing good 99.9% (or something like that) are only willing to do things they consider "good" That is how the pseudo science of eugenics convinced a large portion of the German people that it was "good" to kill "inferior" peoples, as it is nature's way that only the "strong" survive.

“The further a society drifts from truth the more it will hate those who speak it.” … George Orwell
When you look at the colloquial notion of 'good' it's more of a screen for other psycho-emotional impulses. Jonathan Haidt and Jesse Graham posit the moral foundation theory. The foundations have a good vs. bad aspect - Care/Harm, Fairness/Cheating, ... and Sanctity/Degradation. That last one is the strongest for many people, often it's formulated as Purity/Disgust. Moral foundations are compounded by social and cultural cohesion. Now, you can call 'eugenics' a pseudoscience where it's motivated by beliefs and desires rather than theory and fact. Notably 'inferior' people are difficult, frustrating and just plain yucky to deal with. I think we can dismiss that notion of 'good'.........
I have observed many times people doing things that seemed "like a "good" idea at the time." Many Germans believed that they were saving the Aryan "race" via the holocaust with "science". Which they believed (or told they should believe) was a "good" thing.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment

And note the Milgram experiments were not about obedience to authority but about convincing people to believe the authority's definition of what is "good"

Think about the jihadis like the 911 hijackers. In their minds they were literally dying to be good. There many reports of people encountering the highjackers pre 911 were that they were polite, and helpful to others. IE they, in their minds, were "good". And as they say "The road to hell is paved with "good" intentions" It all comes down to which authority you believe has the correct definition of "good". Its Belief in, not obedience to, authority.

Anyone not believing in the same "good" are portrayed as Harming, Cheating, Betraying, Subversive, and/or Degradating ___________(FILL IN THE BLANK WITH THE PREFERRED FORM OF PROPAGANDA IE "Sub-humans", "Low IQ", "Deplorables" etc.. )
“"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros

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