Neverfail's North American ruminations.

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neverfail
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Re: Neverfail's North American ruminations.

Post by neverfail » Fri Jun 22, 2018 3:17 pm

SteveFoerster wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 12:16 pm
Jim the Moron wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 4:45 am
I keep having to remind myself that patience is a virtue.
You have more than I, because once his argument became overtly racist I lost mine (nearly along with my lunch).
Your above statement is untrue and defamitary. That I have not taken angry exception to it is entirely due to my preference to regard idiots (and morons) with pity rather than ire. :)

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SteveFoerster
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Re: Neverfail's North American ruminations.

Post by SteveFoerster » Sat Jun 23, 2018 1:14 pm

neverfail wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 3:17 pm
SteveFoerster wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 12:16 pm
Jim the Moron wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 4:45 am
I keep having to remind myself that patience is a virtue.
You have more than I, because once his argument became overtly racist I lost mine (nearly along with my lunch).
Your above statement is untrue and defamitary. That I have not taken angry exception to it is entirely due to my preference to regard idiots (and morons) with pity rather than ire. :)
If there's another way to interpret paragraph after paragraph of explaining a country's prosperity by its percentage of white population while considering no other factors, then I'm happy to consider it.
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neverfail
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Re: Neverfail's North American ruminations.

Post by neverfail » Sat Jun 23, 2018 3:07 pm

SteveFoerster wrote:
Sat Jun 23, 2018 1:14 pm

If there's another way to interpret paragraph after paragraph of explaining a country's prosperity by its percentage of white population while considering no other factors, then I'm happy to consider it.
If you disagree with my interpretation of the Google-supplied facts on Bermuda, then please voice them. I would (believe it or not) find it heart warming to know about the indispensable contribution made by its black majority population (apart from being law abiding and welcoming towards white people).

Better than attempting to slag me with spurious allegations of racism, don't you think?

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Sertorio
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Re: Neverfail's North American ruminations.

Post by Sertorio » Sat Jun 23, 2018 3:32 pm

neverfail wrote:
Sat Jun 23, 2018 3:07 pm
SteveFoerster wrote:
Sat Jun 23, 2018 1:14 pm

If there's another way to interpret paragraph after paragraph of explaining a country's prosperity by its percentage of white population while considering no other factors, then I'm happy to consider it.
If you disagree with my interpretation of the Google-supplied facts on Bermuda, then please voice them. I would (believe it or not) find it heart warming to know about the indispensable contribution made by its black majority population (apart from being law abiding and welcoming towards white people).

Better than attempting to slag me with spurious allegations of racism, don't you think?
Development, knowledge and efficiency take quite some time to acquire, and - on a group basis - it's a cumulative process which takes time before it produces results. Whether the group is made up of white or black people is irrelevant.

In my country, when I look back to the 50's of last century, I see an underdeveloped people, generally quite ignorant, inefficient, incapable of pushing Portugal into the modern world. In the 60's and 70's a growing minority was getting the necessary education, workers were becoming more skilled on the back of a growing industrialization, and things were slowly becoming better. But it took another 40 years before enough people got the education and training needed to be able to cope with the challenges of the modern world. And it is only now that we have reached the point in which we are becoming productive and competitive enough to find our place among the developed countries, based only on our own skills and work.

To recognize that most black societies have not reached that point, and that prosperity often depends on the presence of Asian or Caucasian minorities who already have reached the necessary level of development, is not being racist. Racism is thinking that, no matter what they do, Blacks will never reach the levels of development and productivity reached by Asians and Whites. In my view, that's not what Neverfail is implying.

neverfail
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Re: Neverfail's North American ruminations.

Post by neverfail » Sat Jun 23, 2018 7:29 pm

Sertorio wrote:
Sat Jun 23, 2018 3:32 pm
neverfail wrote:
Sat Jun 23, 2018 3:07 pm
SteveFoerster wrote:
Sat Jun 23, 2018 1:14 pm

If there's another way to interpret paragraph after paragraph of explaining a country's prosperity by its percentage of white population while considering no other factors, then I'm happy to consider it.
If you disagree with my interpretation of the Google-supplied facts on Bermuda, then please voice them. I would (believe it or not) find it heart warming to know about the indispensable contribution made by its black majority population (apart from being law abiding and welcoming towards white people).

Better than attempting to slag me with spurious allegations of racism, don't you think?
Development, knowledge and efficiency take quite some time to acquire, and - on a group basis - it's a cumulative process which takes time before it produces results. Whether the group is made up of white or black people is irrelevant.

In my country, when I look back to the 50's of last century, I see an underdeveloped people, generally quite ignorant, inefficient, incapable of pushing Portugal into the modern world. In the 60's and 70's a growing minority was getting the necessary education, workers were becoming more skilled on the back of a growing industrialization, and things were slowly becoming better. But it took another 40 years before enough people got the education and training needed to be able to cope with the challenges of the modern world. And it is only now that we have reached the point in which we are becoming productive and competitive enough to find our place among the developed countries, based only on our own skills and work.

To recognize that most black societies have not reached that point, and that prosperity often depends on the presence of Asian or Caucasian minorities who already have reached the necessary level of development, is not being racist. Racism is thinking that, no matter what they do, Blacks will never reach the levels of development and productivity reached by Asians and Whites. In my view, that's not what Neverfail is implying.
Well put, Sertorio!

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cassowary
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Re: Neverfail's North American ruminations.

Post by cassowary » Sat Jun 23, 2018 11:34 pm

neverfail wrote:
Sat Jun 23, 2018 3:07 pm
SteveFoerster wrote:
Sat Jun 23, 2018 1:14 pm

If there's another way to interpret paragraph after paragraph of explaining a country's prosperity by its percentage of white population while considering no other factors, then I'm happy to consider it.
If you disagree with my interpretation of the Google-supplied facts on Bermuda, then please voice them. I would (believe it or not) find it heart warming to know about the indispensable contribution made by its black majority population (apart from being law abiding and welcoming towards white people).

Better than attempting to slag me with spurious allegations of racism, don't you think?
Neverfail is not racist, Steve. I have known him long enough. There is little information about Bermuda on the internet. Why don't you tell us what you know, Steve?

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cassowary
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Sir John Swan interview

Post by cassowary » Sun Jun 24, 2018 12:11 am

I found this article from some Bermuda newspaper. Sir John Swan was former PM of Bermuda and a successful businessman.
When asked about how he feels about the state of race relations in Bermuda, Sir John Swan told Bernews, “Well, I think race relations is a fact of economics. We keep thinking it’s a fact of sociology or anthropology, which means the historical background of things that have happened.

“I think economics is the big factor, and I think that we have a unique society here, or a society here, which your dominant force here, firstly international business, predominantly controlled by the white community.
While Black Bermudans are the majority and hence hold political power, it is the white Bermudans who are the dominant ones in economics. So, from Swan's comment, it appears that the economic success of Bermuda is more due to its white population (I mean European. As Neverfail pointed out, Turks and Arabs are also white. These guys are usually failures.) than its black population. But I am sure that blacks have also contributed greatly to the economy.

We can extrapolate from this. Blacks hold political power in Bermuda and so do not suffer from racism. Yet they are relatively poorer in Bermuda. So this supports my belief that income disparity between white and black Americans is not due to racism either. Note that there are cities in the US where blacks hold political power too. There must be some other factors involved.

neverfail
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Re: Sir John Swan interview

Post by neverfail » Sun Jun 24, 2018 11:18 pm

cassowary wrote:
Sun Jun 24, 2018 12:11 am

While Black Bermudans are the majority and hence hold political power, it is the white Bermudans who are the dominant ones in economics. So, from Swan's comment, it appears that the economic success of Bermuda is more due to its white population (I mean European. As Neverfail pointed out, Turks and Arabs are also white. These guys are usually failures.) than its black population. But I am sure that blacks have also contributed greatly to the economy.

We can extrapolate from this. Blacks hold political power in Bermuda and so do not suffer from racism. Yet they are relatively poorer in Bermuda. So this supports my belief that income disparity between white and black Americans is not due to racism either. Note that there are cities in the US where blacks hold political power too. There must be some other factors involved.
Poor Steve Foerster also mentioned the Cayman Islands. As an example of a black success story the Caymans are even more laughable than Bermuda. Look at what the CIA World factbook has on record about the ethnic mix of the Cayman's:

"mixed 40%, white 20%, black 20%, expatriates of various ethnic groups 20%."

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Also the Caymans is no more sovereign than Bermuda is.

"In 1959, the islands became a territory within the Federation of the West Indies. When the Federation dissolved in 1962, the Cayman Islands chose to remain a British dependency."

It would be lovely for the Afro equivalent of Singapore, Hong Kong, Taiwan or South Korea let alone Japan to emerge. Meantime, until one does let no one sell you a lemon prompted by an apparent unacknowledged, black pride craving to save face.

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SteveFoerster
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Re: Sir John Swan interview

Post by SteveFoerster » Mon Jun 25, 2018 12:48 pm

neverfail wrote:
Sun Jun 24, 2018 11:18 pm
It would be lovely for the Afro equivalent of Singapore, Hong Kong, Taiwan or South Korea let alone Japan to emerge. Meantime, until one does let no one sell you a lemon prompted by an apparent unacknowledged, black pride craving to save face.
I hope you're just writing angrily without thinking and don't really believe that.

Look, I'm going to try this again, and see whether I can explain why, as someone who's spent twenty years in the region, your comments about race, prosperity, and the West Indies struck me so negatively.

First of all, you'll notice that I didn't start out talking about race, but rather simply disagreeing with you that the region doesn't belong in the cultural club of English-speaking countries -- that's all! The whole region is an ethnic melting pot, and has been for centuries. Different islands are different culturally, and race plays a significant role in some (Trinidad, especially), but not a significant one in others, particularly where intermarriage has largely rendered the point moot, as in Dominica.

So when someone who by his own admission doesn't know the first thing about the region charges in and starts talking about "white" this and "black" that, it's immediately jarring, particularly the gratuitously offensive "hell holes" reference sandwiched between comments about ethnic composition:
A small but decisive majority of the population are black (in that part of the World I would assume that means Afro black) - but a significant minority of nearly one third are white - given the island's history that means Anglo-white.

Bermuda is clearly NOT Jamaica (or any of the other Antilles hell holes).

One third of the population is a larger pro-rate of white to black than in South Africa - where in any case a preponderance of the whites are non-Anglo (probably much to South Africa's sorrow).
If you care what really triggered me here, that was it. It was positively Trumpian. And the irony is that since I know how diverse the region is, I wasn't trying to paint Bermuda or the Caymans as some sort of real world Wakanda -- that's an assumption that you brought in all by yourself.

So, to clarify, here's a list of things I was actually arguing:

1. As a region, the English-speaking West Indies belongs in the "Anglosphere" cultural group in a way that former UK colonies in Africa and Asia do not.
2. In response to your objection to this that they are too poor, there are countries in the West Indies economically on par with other Anglosphere countries.
3. UK oversight is not the reason for the prosperity found in Bermuda and the Caymans.

I was not arguing that Bermuda and the Caymans are countries full of nothing but black people who have exceeded the GDP per capita of Australia without attracting white guest workers, because unlike you I know the region well enough not for that way of thinking to be baked into my assumptions.
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neverfail
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Re: Sir John Swan interview

Post by neverfail » Mon Jun 25, 2018 2:35 pm

SteveFoerster wrote:
Mon Jun 25, 2018 12:48 pm
1. As a region, the English-speaking West Indies belongs in the "Anglosphere" cultural group in a way that former UK colonies in Africa and Asia do not.
I believe so too , Steve. The former plantation slaves embraced the culture of those who had previously enslaved them. ;) .
SteveFoerster wrote:
Mon Jun 25, 2018 12:48 pm
2. In response to your objection to this that they are too poor, there are countries in the West Indies economically on par with other Anglosphere countries.
In is not necessarily sinful to be poor nor holy to be wealthy.
SteveFoerster wrote:
Mon Jun 25, 2018 12:48 pm
3. UK oversight is not the reason for the prosperity found in Bermuda and the Caymans.
It has clearly done them no harm either. Other British West indies islands are fully sovereign and over the years seem to have got themselves into strife. These two have avoided it.
SteveFoerster wrote:
Mon Jun 25, 2018 12:48 pm
I was not arguing that Bermuda and the Caymans are countries full of nothing but black people who have exceeded the GDP per capita of Australia without attracting white guest workers, because unlike you I know the region well enough not for that way of thinking to be baked into my assumptions.
:idea: Steve, why have you made a point of honour about convincing me? Is this a matter of self-identity? Are you Afro-Caribbean yourself?

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