Hahaha. Another Liberal Democrat bites the dust

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Milo
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Re: Hahaha. Another Liberal Democrat bites the dust

Post by Milo » Fri May 11, 2018 8:38 pm

Doc wrote:
Fri May 11, 2018 7:49 pm
Milo wrote:
Fri May 11, 2018 2:00 pm
Doc wrote:
Fri May 11, 2018 9:29 am
Milo wrote:
Fri May 11, 2018 4:21 am
Doc wrote:
Thu May 10, 2018 11:58 am
Milo wrote:
Thu May 10, 2018 11:16 am


There is someone elected "in charge" in Canada, just not prosecuting.

You shouldn't vote for the cure for cancer, just whether it should be cured and for how much.
Here in the US we live in a democracy.
As opposed to Canada?
Well it does seem you avoid elections where ever possible and their is the lack of the right to free speech in Canada......

Here is an article that makes my point ACCOUNTABILITY Special Prosecutors are un-elected prosecutors:


https://www.politico.com/magazine/story ... ned-218359
The first pillar of the argument is intellectual: special prosecutors like Mueller are a really bad idea. They have enormous power, and to justify their existence they’re prone to dive down rabbit holes, often barely connected to the original charge. (Bill Clinton’s impeachment in December 1998, for perjury regarding his relationship with Monica Lewinsky, stemmed from an investigation into a real estate deal begun by special prosecutor Robert Fiske in January 1994—almost five years earlier.) Moreover, special prosecutors simply aren’t as good at getting an answer to a factual question as a select congressional committee or an independent commission, which is how Dershowitz says Russian election interference should have been investigated.

He has been sounding this note for years. “The subjects of such investigations are often hounded and bankrupted. The independent counsel have no accountability or continuity,” he wrote in his 1998 book Sexual McCarthyism: Clinton, Starr and the Emerging Constitutional Crisis. And he has company. Special prosecutors are “like dinosaurs roaming the Earth in search of prey,” said NYU professor Burt Neuborne, former national legal director of the American Civil Liberties Union.
Alan Dershowitz speaks into a microphone with intensity and points his finger
“The sad reality appears to be that most people care about perjury only when they disapprove of the substance of the lie or of the person who is lying,” Dershowitz said in Dec. 1998 testimony before the House Judiciary Committee in regards to the looming impeachment of President Bill Clinton
.

Every lawyer I spoke with for this story acknowledged the consistency and validity of Dershowitz’s concern with special counsel overreach. “This is a classic civil liberties position,” Gertner said. In the case of Trump, some questioned whether Dershowitz has made clear that this is an institutional argument as opposed to a personal attack on Mueller. “Any person who has listened to Alan on a regular basis would not think he only had a problem with the appointment of Mueller,” Toobin told me.
Of course they're accountable: defence counsel, the judge, the Crown Service and the law society all come to mind.

Leaving aside how obviously you try to slant some academic legal navel gazing, comparing a Special Prosecutor to a regular one is like comparing an espionage agent to a police officer.
And if in the process they bankrupt the defendant? If that happens before they are found innocent how does that serve justice? OR is this about something else to you?
When has a special prosecutor bankrupted the Defendant? Never, as far as I know.

But what I think we are debating is whether electing prosecutors would stop this theoretical abuse, I can't imagine how it would. In fact I am sure it would make it worse, think Socrates and Alcibiades.

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Doc
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Re: Hahaha. Another Liberal Democrat bites the dust

Post by Doc » Sat May 12, 2018 2:32 am

Milo wrote:
Fri May 11, 2018 8:38 pm
Doc wrote:
Fri May 11, 2018 7:49 pm
Milo wrote:
Fri May 11, 2018 2:00 pm
Doc wrote:
Fri May 11, 2018 9:29 am
Milo wrote:
Fri May 11, 2018 4:21 am
Doc wrote:
Thu May 10, 2018 11:58 am


Here in the US we live in a democracy.
As opposed to Canada?
Well it does seem you avoid elections where ever possible and their is the lack of the right to free speech in Canada......

Here is an article that makes my point ACCOUNTABILITY Special Prosecutors are un-elected prosecutors:


https://www.politico.com/magazine/story ... ned-218359
The first pillar of the argument is intellectual: special prosecutors like Mueller are a really bad idea. They have enormous power, and to justify their existence they’re prone to dive down rabbit holes, often barely connected to the original charge. (Bill Clinton’s impeachment in December 1998, for perjury regarding his relationship with Monica Lewinsky, stemmed from an investigation into a real estate deal begun by special prosecutor Robert Fiske in January 1994—almost five years earlier.) Moreover, special prosecutors simply aren’t as good at getting an answer to a factual question as a select congressional committee or an independent commission, which is how Dershowitz says Russian election interference should have been investigated.

He has been sounding this note for years. “The subjects of such investigations are often hounded and bankrupted. The independent counsel have no accountability or continuity,” he wrote in his 1998 book Sexual McCarthyism: Clinton, Starr and the Emerging Constitutional Crisis. And he has company. Special prosecutors are “like dinosaurs roaming the Earth in search of prey,” said NYU professor Burt Neuborne, former national legal director of the American Civil Liberties Union.
Alan Dershowitz speaks into a microphone with intensity and points his finger
“The sad reality appears to be that most people care about perjury only when they disapprove of the substance of the lie or of the person who is lying,” Dershowitz said in Dec. 1998 testimony before the House Judiciary Committee in regards to the looming impeachment of President Bill Clinton
.

Every lawyer I spoke with for this story acknowledged the consistency and validity of Dershowitz’s concern with special counsel overreach. “This is a classic civil liberties position,” Gertner said. In the case of Trump, some questioned whether Dershowitz has made clear that this is an institutional argument as opposed to a personal attack on Mueller. “Any person who has listened to Alan on a regular basis would not think he only had a problem with the appointment of Mueller,” Toobin told me.
Of course they're accountable: defence counsel, the judge, the Crown Service and the law society all come to mind.

Leaving aside how obviously you try to slant some academic legal navel gazing, comparing a Special Prosecutor to a regular one is like comparing an espionage agent to a police officer.
And if in the process they bankrupt the defendant? If that happens before they are found innocent how does that serve justice? OR is this about something else to you?
When has a special prosecutor bankrupted the Defendant? Never, as far as I know.

But what I think we are debating is whether electing prosecutors would stop this theoretical abuse, I can't imagine how it would. In fact I am sure it would make it worse, think Socrates and Alcibiades.
I am sure they would be more accountable.

Mike Flynn had to sell his house and now it turns out Mueller could not prove that Flynn lied to the FBI. There has been others thatr Mueller has bankrupted as SP as well.
“"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros

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Milo
Posts: 1246
Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2016 10:14 pm

Re: Hahaha. Another Liberal Democrat bites the dust

Post by Milo » Sat May 12, 2018 7:55 am

Doc wrote:
Sat May 12, 2018 2:32 am
Milo wrote:
Fri May 11, 2018 8:38 pm
Doc wrote:
Fri May 11, 2018 7:49 pm
Milo wrote:
Fri May 11, 2018 2:00 pm
Doc wrote:
Fri May 11, 2018 9:29 am
Milo wrote:
Fri May 11, 2018 4:21 am


As opposed to Canada?
Well it does seem you avoid elections where ever possible and their is the lack of the right to free speech in Canada......

Here is an article that makes my point ACCOUNTABILITY Special Prosecutors are un-elected prosecutors:


https://www.politico.com/magazine/story ... ned-218359
The first pillar of the argument is intellectual: special prosecutors like Mueller are a really bad idea. They have enormous power, and to justify their existence they’re prone to dive down rabbit holes, often barely connected to the original charge. (Bill Clinton’s impeachment in December 1998, for perjury regarding his relationship with Monica Lewinsky, stemmed from an investigation into a real estate deal begun by special prosecutor Robert Fiske in January 1994—almost five years earlier.) Moreover, special prosecutors simply aren’t as good at getting an answer to a factual question as a select congressional committee or an independent commission, which is how Dershowitz says Russian election interference should have been investigated.

He has been sounding this note for years. “The subjects of such investigations are often hounded and bankrupted. The independent counsel have no accountability or continuity,” he wrote in his 1998 book Sexual McCarthyism: Clinton, Starr and the Emerging Constitutional Crisis. And he has company. Special prosecutors are “like dinosaurs roaming the Earth in search of prey,” said NYU professor Burt Neuborne, former national legal director of the American Civil Liberties Union.
Alan Dershowitz speaks into a microphone with intensity and points his finger

.

Every lawyer I spoke with for this story acknowledged the consistency and validity of Dershowitz’s concern with special counsel overreach. “This is a classic civil liberties position,” Gertner said. In the case of Trump, some questioned whether Dershowitz has made clear that this is an institutional argument as opposed to a personal attack on Mueller. “Any person who has listened to Alan on a regular basis would not think he only had a problem with the appointment of Mueller,” Toobin told me.
Of course they're accountable: defence counsel, the judge, the Crown Service and the law society all come to mind.

Leaving aside how obviously you try to slant some academic legal navel gazing, comparing a Special Prosecutor to a regular one is like comparing an espionage agent to a police officer.
And if in the process they bankrupt the defendant? If that happens before they are found innocent how does that serve justice? OR is this about something else to you?
When has a special prosecutor bankrupted the Defendant? Never, as far as I know.

But what I think we are debating is whether electing prosecutors would stop this theoretical abuse, I can't imagine how it would. In fact I am sure it would make it worse, think Socrates and Alcibiades.
I am sure they would be more accountable.

Mike Flynn had to sell his house and now it turns out Mueller could not prove that Flynn lied to the FBI. There has been others thatr Mueller has bankrupted as SP as well.
Selling your home isn't the same as being bankrupt and he pleaded out and Trump fired him for lying. You'll have to do better than that.

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Doc
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Location: Cradle To Grave

Re: Hahaha. Another Liberal Democrat bites the dust

Post by Doc » Sat May 12, 2018 10:36 am

Milo wrote:
Sat May 12, 2018 7:55 am
Doc wrote:
Sat May 12, 2018 2:32 am
Milo wrote:
Fri May 11, 2018 8:38 pm
Doc wrote:
Fri May 11, 2018 7:49 pm
Milo wrote:
Fri May 11, 2018 2:00 pm
Doc wrote:
Fri May 11, 2018 9:29 am


Well it does seem you avoid elections where ever possible and their is the lack of the right to free speech in Canada......

Here is an article that makes my point ACCOUNTABILITY Special Prosecutors are un-elected prosecutors:


https://www.politico.com/magazine/story ... ned-218359

Of course they're accountable: defence counsel, the judge, the Crown Service and the law society all come to mind.

Leaving aside how obviously you try to slant some academic legal navel gazing, comparing a Special Prosecutor to a regular one is like comparing an espionage agent to a police officer.
And if in the process they bankrupt the defendant? If that happens before they are found innocent how does that serve justice? OR is this about something else to you?
When has a special prosecutor bankrupted the Defendant? Never, as far as I know.

But what I think we are debating is whether electing prosecutors would stop this theoretical abuse, I can't imagine how it would. In fact I am sure it would make it worse, think Socrates and Alcibiades.
I am sure they would be more accountable.

Mike Flynn had to sell his house and now it turns out Mueller could not prove that Flynn lied to the FBI. There has been others thatr Mueller has bankrupted as SP as well.
Selling your home isn't the same as being bankrupt and he pleaded out and Trump fired him for lying. You'll have to do better than that.
OH so the punishment for the innocent is having to sell your home. You have a very interesting sense of Justice Milo.
“"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros

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cassowary
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Another example of politically motivated prosecution

Post by cassowary » Sat May 12, 2018 3:53 pm


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SteveFoerster
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Re: Hahaha. Another Liberal Democrat bites the dust

Post by SteveFoerster » Sat May 12, 2018 9:08 pm

Doc wrote:
Sat May 12, 2018 10:36 am
Milo wrote:
Sat May 12, 2018 7:55 am
Doc wrote:
Sat May 12, 2018 2:32 am
Milo wrote:
Fri May 11, 2018 8:38 pm
Doc wrote:
Fri May 11, 2018 7:49 pm
Milo wrote:
Fri May 11, 2018 2:00 pm


Of course they're accountable: defence counsel, the judge, the Crown Service and the law society all come to mind.

Leaving aside how obviously you try to slant some academic legal navel gazing, comparing a Special Prosecutor to a regular one is like comparing an espionage agent to a police officer.
And if in the process they bankrupt the defendant? If that happens before they are found innocent how does that serve justice? OR is this about something else to you?
When has a special prosecutor bankrupted the Defendant? Never, as far as I know.

But what I think we are debating is whether electing prosecutors would stop this theoretical abuse, I can't imagine how it would. In fact I am sure it would make it worse, think Socrates and Alcibiades.
I am sure they would be more accountable.

Mike Flynn had to sell his house and now it turns out Mueller could not prove that Flynn lied to the FBI. There has been others thatr Mueller has bankrupted as SP as well.
Selling your home isn't the same as being bankrupt and he pleaded out and Trump fired him for lying. You'll have to do better than that.
OH so the punishment for the innocent is having to sell your home. You have a very interesting sense of Justice Milo.
He's right, Milo, that's not a good thing about which to be blasé.
Writer, technologist, educator, gadfly.
President of New World University: http://newworld.ac

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Milo
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Re: Hahaha. Another Liberal Democrat bites the dust

Post by Milo » Sun May 13, 2018 12:01 am

SteveFoerster wrote:
Sat May 12, 2018 9:08 pm
Doc wrote:
Sat May 12, 2018 10:36 am
Milo wrote:
Sat May 12, 2018 7:55 am
Doc wrote:
Sat May 12, 2018 2:32 am
Milo wrote:
Fri May 11, 2018 8:38 pm
Doc wrote:
Fri May 11, 2018 7:49 pm


And if in the process they bankrupt the defendant? If that happens before they are found innocent how does that serve justice? OR is this about something else to you?
When has a special prosecutor bankrupted the Defendant? Never, as far as I know.

But what I think we are debating is whether electing prosecutors would stop this theoretical abuse, I can't imagine how it would. In fact I am sure it would make it worse, think Socrates and Alcibiades.
I am sure they would be more accountable.

Mike Flynn had to sell his house and now it turns out Mueller could not prove that Flynn lied to the FBI. There has been others thatr Mueller has bankrupted as SP as well.
Selling your home isn't the same as being bankrupt and he pleaded out and Trump fired him for lying. You'll have to do better than that.
OH so the punishment for the innocent is having to sell your home. You have a very interesting sense of Justice Milo.
He's right, Milo, that's not a good thing about which to be blasé.
Innocent? Where do you get that?

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SteveFoerster
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Location: Northern Virginia, USA and Dominica, West Indies
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Re: Hahaha. Another Liberal Democrat bites the dust

Post by SteveFoerster » Sun May 13, 2018 8:44 am

Milo wrote:
Sun May 13, 2018 12:01 am
SteveFoerster wrote:
Sat May 12, 2018 9:08 pm
Doc wrote:
Sat May 12, 2018 10:36 am
Milo wrote:
Sat May 12, 2018 7:55 am
Doc wrote:
Sat May 12, 2018 2:32 am
Milo wrote:
Fri May 11, 2018 8:38 pm


When has a special prosecutor bankrupted the Defendant? Never, as far as I know.

But what I think we are debating is whether electing prosecutors would stop this theoretical abuse, I can't imagine how it would. In fact I am sure it would make it worse, think Socrates and Alcibiades.
I am sure they would be more accountable.

Mike Flynn had to sell his house and now it turns out Mueller could not prove that Flynn lied to the FBI. There has been others thatr Mueller has bankrupted as SP as well.
Selling your home isn't the same as being bankrupt and he pleaded out and Trump fired him for lying. You'll have to do better than that.
OH so the punishment for the innocent is having to sell your home. You have a very interesting sense of Justice Milo.
He's right, Milo, that's not a good thing about which to be blasé.
Innocent? Where do you get that?
Sorry, I should have specified that I was talking about the category, rather than Flynn specifically. I meant that malicious prosecution is a real thing, and that it can bankrupt even those who are never charged.
Writer, technologist, educator, gadfly.
President of New World University: http://newworld.ac

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Doc
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Location: Cradle To Grave

Re: Hahaha. Another Liberal Democrat bites the dust

Post by Doc » Sun May 13, 2018 2:42 pm

SteveFoerster wrote:
Sun May 13, 2018 8:44 am
Milo wrote:
Sun May 13, 2018 12:01 am
SteveFoerster wrote:
Sat May 12, 2018 9:08 pm
Doc wrote:
Sat May 12, 2018 10:36 am
Milo wrote:
Sat May 12, 2018 7:55 am
Doc wrote:
Sat May 12, 2018 2:32 am


I am sure they would be more accountable.

Mike Flynn had to sell his house and now it turns out Mueller could not prove that Flynn lied to the FBI. There has been others thatr Mueller has bankrupted as SP as well.
Selling your home isn't the same as being bankrupt and he pleaded out and Trump fired him for lying. You'll have to do better than that.
OH so the punishment for the innocent is having to sell your home. You have a very interesting sense of Justice Milo.
He's right, Milo, that's not a good thing about which to be blasé.
Innocent? Where do you get that?
Sorry, I should have specified that I was talking about the category, rather than Flynn specifically. I meant that malicious prosecution is a real thing, and that it can bankrupt even those who are never charged.
This was before Flynn plead guilty and before the judge in the case was forced to recuse himself, for reasons unknown, before sentencing. There are others as well that have literally have had to sell their homes that have not been convicted of anything.

The root problem with appointed prosecutors is that they are bureaucrats will little chance to be fired for anything short of being clearly illegal.
“"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros

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cassowary
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Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2016 11:30 pm

Re: Hahaha. Another Liberal Democrat bites the dust

Post by cassowary » Sun May 13, 2018 6:22 pm

Doc wrote:
Sun May 13, 2018 2:42 pm

The root problem with appointed prosecutors is that they are bureaucrats will little chance to be fired for anything short of being clearly illegal.
That is true. But I fear that US prosecutors, whether appointed like Special Counsel Bob Mueller or elected, the justice system is tainted with partisanship. Both sides are doing it. The Republicans got Ken Starr to investigate Bill Clinton on Whitewater but all they got was one lousy blow job. Monica Lewinsksi.

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