Vive la France

Discussion of current events
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Sertorio
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Re: Vive la France

Post by Sertorio » Tue May 01, 2018 5:35 pm

neverfail wrote:
Tue May 01, 2018 2:26 pm
Sertorio wrote:
Tue May 01, 2018 12:59 pm
SteveFoerster wrote:
Tue May 01, 2018 11:56 am
Sertorio wrote:
Tue May 01, 2018 11:25 am
SteveFoerster wrote:
Tue May 01, 2018 9:37 am
Sertorio wrote:
Mon Apr 30, 2018 9:39 am
I have never really understood Japan's willingness to submit themselves to the political diktat of the country which dropped two nuclear bombs on their civilian population. Is this a case of Stockholm syndrome?... But I suppose that sooner or later a prouder generation will take over in Japan...
I know, right? The poor, peaceful Japanese, just sitting there minding their own business, when suddenly, BLAM!, out of nowhere they just get nuked by the U.S. military.
You might be able to immagine the feeling, if you thought of Americans' reactions if Japan had dropped two atomic bombs on New York and on Chicago...
I assume in your fantasy scenario that the Americans started the war?
They certainly did as much as they could to drive Japan to fire the first shot...


I know that Sertorio has this annoying fixation of always casting ever foreign state America has ever been at war with as the "victim" of US aggression; but in this case Steve he has a point.

F D Roosevelt was keen to get America into World War Two on the side of Britain but unfortunately was constrained from doing so by the prevailing isolationist sentiment within his country. It meant that both Congress and the media were against American entry into the War (if only to put Britain's chestnuts out of the fire). Without Congressional approval no US president can lead his country to war.

Domestic American politics!

The USA had been Imperial Japan's main supplier of oil. Without oil Japan could not continue pursuing its war of aggression against China (which, please note Sertorio, began in 1937: so much for your myth of Japan being the innocent victim). In June 1941 the Roosevelt administration ordered the US oil companies to cease supplying oil to the Japanese empire.

In 1941 there were five big oil companies that produced most of the world's crude petroleum known as the 5 sisters. Three were American; the fourth was British petroleum whose oil wells were mainly in Iran and the fifth was the Anglo-Dutch consortium the Shell Oil Company whose oil wells were mainly in the Dutch East Indies (present day Indonesia). Normally headquarters in Amsterdam, this corporation's top executive along with the rest of the Dutch establishment fled into exile to the UK with the German invasion of their country in 1940. Living as guests of the UK government, when Churchill's wartime government ordered this firm along with BP to likewise cease supplying oil to Japan it had no choice but to comply.

It meant that the Japanese were cut off from supplies of imported oil as long as they continued their war of aggression against China. Japan, with strict rationing, had only a 3 month supply of oil stored up in oil tanks on their home turf.

Too humiliating for their government to give up their war against China. They needed to grab a captive supply of oil fast. The only country with such a wealth of oil reasonably close to Japan were the Dutch East Indies. To ensure that their oil tankers would not be interdicted en-route by a foreign power they had to get rid of the US Pacific fleet. Hence the bombing of Pearl Harbour with was meant to be only their means to that end.

Yes, it was a grubby way of getting the USA into the War on Roosevelt's part, I agree! But what was the alternative? To let the Axis powers win the war? In late 1941 Britain was reeling whilst the Soviet Union was on the ropes. It took the entry of the USA to finally turn the war around against the Fascists.
................................................................................
Would you have preferred to have seen the Axis powers win to reshape the world to their own image and likeness, Sertorio? If that were your preference than as a purported socialist I can only draw the conclusion that you must be a damnable hypocrite.
Your facts are right, and I do not dispute them. But the victory in Europe had nothing to do with making war with Japan. You may say that without entering into war with Japan, Americans would have never accepted entering into war in Europe. That's what most people say, but I have little doubt that Roosevelt would have found a way to enter the war against Germany even without Pearl Harbour. Another 'Lustania' incident could have been engineered with much less trouble than pushing the Japanese to bomb Pearl Harbour... The fact is that the US had its own designs for Asia, and that meant making war and defeating Japan.

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Doc
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Re: Vive la France

Post by Doc » Tue May 01, 2018 8:57 pm

The US was outside of HItler's ambitions. He though of Americans as dumb cowboys. But Hitler said that Europe was for Germans. Given the Roosevelt was depth charging German submarines almost all the way to Ireland gave Hitler plenty of an excuse to declare war on the US. Roosevelt tried to get Hitler to declare war. He didn't. Roosevelt may have eventually goaded Hitler into war, but he didn't have to as the US was directly in the way of Japanese ambitions. If it was not for Russia Hitler would have never signed a mutual defense act with Japan. The Soviet Union was on Hitler door step the US on the other side of the world.
“"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros

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cassowary
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Re: Vive la France

Post by cassowary » Tue May 01, 2018 10:20 pm

Sertorio wrote:
Tue May 01, 2018 5:35 pm


Your facts are right, and I do not dispute them. But the victory in Europe had nothing to do with making war with Japan. You may say that without entering into war with Japan, Americans would have never accepted entering into war in Europe.That's what most people say, ...
Actually, Hitler declared war on the US. So there was no choice. I wonder what would have happened if Hitler had not declared war against the US. Would the US have stayed out of Europe? There was a strong isolationist movement in the US at that time. The people wanted to stay out of foreign wars. Pearl Habour made it an American war But the war in Europe was not an American war.

IF Hitler had not declared war on the US or delayed it for one or two years, history would have been different. I think Roosevelt would have found it difficult to overcome isolationist sentiments in the US, much as he wanted to help Britain. The public's mood was to punish Japan for bombing Pearl Harbour. Starting a war with Germany would be seen as unwise as the US would then have to divide its resources to both Europe and Asia. I think Hitler made a blunder.
...but I have little doubt that Roosevelt would have found a way to enter the war against Germany even without Pearl Harbour. Another 'Lustania' incident could have been engineered with much less trouble than pushing the Japanese to bomb Pearl Harbour... The fact is that the US had its own designs for Asia, and that meant making war and defeating Japan.
It is not so easy to justify to the public that was angry at Japan. Why divide US forces to two theatres when Japan posed a threat to California? I don't think the US is capable of deliberately sinking one fo their own passenger ships to get the people to go to war. The news will leak out. That is the advantage of having freedom of speech.

neverfail
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Re: Vive la France

Post by neverfail » Wed May 02, 2018 3:46 pm

cassowary wrote:
Tue May 01, 2018 10:20 pm


IF Hitler had not declared war on the US or delayed it for one or two years, history would have been different. I think Roosevelt would have found it difficult to overcome isolationist sentiments in the US, much as he wanted to help Britain. The public's mood was to punish Japan for bombing Pearl Harbour. Starting a war with Germany would be seen as unwise as the US would then have to divide its resources to both Europe and Asia. I think Hitler made a blunder.
So do I. The only explanation I can come up with is that old Adolf must have had an attack of hubris. You know - our army is at the gates of Moscow; Britain is on the back foot and in any case the USA ism just a country of degenerates run by Jews. The logic of declaring war on the US was also a gesture of solidarity with their ally Japan and a "come on" for Tokyo to launch a war against the USSR from the east. Unfortunately, German intelligence failed to discover a secret non-aggression pact that Japan and the USSR had signed in 1939 after two bruising little border wars in which the Japanese had come off second best.

cassowary wrote:
Tue May 01, 2018 10:20 pm
It is not so easy to justify to the public that was angry at Japan. Why divide US forces to two theatres when Japan posed a threat to California? I don't think the US is capable of deliberately sinking one fo their own passenger ships to get the people to go to war. The news will leak out. That is the advantage of having freedom of speech.
I sometimes believe that Imperial Japan's rulers must have been crazy not to have sent ground troops in to overrun and occupy the Hawaiian islands in the wake of the Pearl Harbour attack. An invasion of the North America mainland was never on their war agenda. But using Oahu as their own advanced submarine and bomber base would have given the Japanese command over the approaches to the entire US west coast rendering it impossible for the Americans to marshall a force their powerful enough to re-take the islands and then go on to prosecute the war across the pacific back to the japanese home islands.

The likely reason they did not do this was that Tojo and his fellow-generals could not take the USA seriously as a real threat. As far as this cabal was concerned the conquest of China was Japan's main game and the attack on the US merely an unwonted diversion of resources away from achieving that goal. Somewhat like Hitler in Berlin, Tojo carried around the impression in his head of "degenerate" America.

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Sertorio
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Re: Vive la France

Post by Sertorio » Wed May 02, 2018 4:53 pm

neverfail wrote:
Wed May 02, 2018 3:46 pm

I sometimes believe that Imperial Japan's rulers must have been crazy not to have sent ground troops in to overrun and occupy the Hawaiian islands in the wake of the Pearl Harbour attack. An invasion of the North America mainland was never on their war agenda. But using Oahu as their own advanced submarine and bomber base would have given the Japanese command over the approaches to the entire US west coast rendering it impossible for the Americans to marshall a force their powerful enough to re-take the islands and then go on to prosecute the war across the pacific back to the japanese home islands.

The likely reason they did not do this was that Tojo and his fellow-generals could not take the USA seriously as a real threat. As far as this cabal was concerned the conquest of China was Japan's main game and the attack on the US merely an unwonted diversion of resources away from achieving that goal. Somewhat like Hitler in Berlin, Tojo carried around the impression in his head of "degenerate" America.
Another possible explanation is that Japan was actually afraid of US power and didn't dare to push on after Pearl Harbour. Yamamoto had lived in the US and probably knew that trying to take Hawaii might be a "bridge too far" as far as Japanese armed forces were concerned. Japanese military adventures in China and elsewhere in Asia may give us the idea that they were a fierce and daring nation. But they may have been more unsure than they looked, and tended to play as safe as possible, only daring to attack those who were expected not to put up much of a fight. Which wasn't the case with the US. That may help explaining why Japan has allowed itself to be submitted to the US, even in present days. The almost non-existent anti-American feelings in Japan is something I never understood. At most they have a passive resistence attitude as far as American culture is concerned, but that's about it.

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