Vive la France

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Sertorio
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Re: Vive la France

Post by Sertorio » Mon Apr 30, 2018 8:42 am

cassowary wrote:
Mon Apr 30, 2018 7:32 am
Sertorio wrote:
Mon Apr 30, 2018 3:06 am

China has no designs in respect of Japan, and Japan no longer can afford an expansionist policy directed against China.
China certainly has designs for Diaoyu or Senkaku Island. The US has promised Japan support in the event China takes it by force.
A greater casus belli could hardly ever be found... It clearly justifies an alliance between Japan and the US... And a war against China...

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SteveFoerster
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Re: Vive la France

Post by SteveFoerster » Mon Apr 30, 2018 9:15 am

Sertorio wrote:
Sun Apr 29, 2018 2:55 am
I have no problems accepting these views of yours on the subject. Which does not invalidate my views on the overall negative character of US presence in Asia. Besides, the US presence in Asia can only last as long as Japan does not decide that it too can become a nuclear power. If - or once - that happens, the US presence west of Hawaii will no longer be tolerated. Not by China and not by Japan. And everybody else in Asia will follow suit.
Japanese policymakers seem perfectly content to have American taxpayers foot the bill for their defence. You've presented no reason that should change even in the long run, other than your demonstrably mistaken belief that everyone else in the world secretly shares your anti-American positions.

You've also forgotten that the U.S. territories of Guam and the CNMI are far to the west of Hawaii and surely even you are not mad enough to suggest their status is disputable.
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Sertorio
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Re: Vive la France

Post by Sertorio » Mon Apr 30, 2018 9:39 am

SteveFoerster wrote:
Mon Apr 30, 2018 9:15 am
Sertorio wrote:
Sun Apr 29, 2018 2:55 am
I have no problems accepting these views of yours on the subject. Which does not invalidate my views on the overall negative character of US presence in Asia. Besides, the US presence in Asia can only last as long as Japan does not decide that it too can become a nuclear power. If - or once - that happens, the US presence west of Hawaii will no longer be tolerated. Not by China and not by Japan. And everybody else in Asia will follow suit.
Japanese policymakers seem perfectly content to have American taxpayers foot the bill for their defence. You've presented no reason that should change even in the long run, other than your demonstrably mistaken belief that everyone else in the world secretly shares your anti-American positions.
I have never really understood Japan's willingness to submit themselves to the political diktat of the country which dropped two nuclear bombs on their civilian population. Is this a case of Stockholm syndrome?... But I suppose that sooner or later a prouder generation will take over in Japan...
SteveFoerster wrote:
Mon Apr 30, 2018 9:15 am
You've also forgotten that the U.S. territories of Guam and the CNMI are far to the west of Hawaii and surely even you are not mad enough to suggest their status is disputable.
You are right there. I just went a bit overboard on that one... :(

neverfail
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Re: the Japanese know they are not loved.

Post by neverfail » Mon Apr 30, 2018 3:10 pm

SteveFoerster wrote:
Mon Apr 30, 2018 9:15 am
Japanese policymakers seem perfectly content to have American taxpayers foot the bill for their defence.
That seems to be a narrowly venal view of the situation, Steve. Why do you Yanks always jump to the conclusion that your allies are imposing on you? Japanese policymakers seem content for Japan to remain within the American pale not because Japan cannot afford a big buildup of conventional arms but because the Japanese are still so hated by their Asian neighbours for past war crimes that they know they would all turn against them if they tried to.

Bitter memories of old Imperial Japan. The leopard never changes its spots.

In particular (as I pointed out in a preceding post) attempting to develop thermonuclear bombs of their own would invite a pre-emptive first strike from the PRC. (Why take the chance of seeing Japan turn militarist once again?) Having Japan shelter behind the US nuclear umbrella like it does though seems perfectly acceptable to Beijing - since it means the decision of whether or not to use the thermonuclear arsenal is out of Japanese hands.

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Re: Vive la France

Post by SteveFoerster » Tue May 01, 2018 9:37 am

Sertorio wrote:
Mon Apr 30, 2018 9:39 am
I have never really understood Japan's willingness to submit themselves to the political diktat of the country which dropped two nuclear bombs on their civilian population. Is this a case of Stockholm syndrome?... But I suppose that sooner or later a prouder generation will take over in Japan...
I know, right? The poor, peaceful Japanese, just sitting there minding their own business, when suddenly, BLAM!, out of nowhere they just get nuked by the U.S. military.
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Re: the Japanese know they are not loved.

Post by SteveFoerster » Tue May 01, 2018 10:11 am

neverfail wrote:
Mon Apr 30, 2018 3:10 pm
SteveFoerster wrote:
Mon Apr 30, 2018 9:15 am
Japanese policymakers seem perfectly content to have American taxpayers foot the bill for their defence.
That seems to be a narrowly venal view of the situation, Steve. Why do you Yanks always jump to the conclusion that your allies are imposing on you? Japanese policymakers seem content for Japan to remain within the American pale not because Japan cannot afford a big buildup of conventional arms but because the Japanese are still so hated by their Asian neighbours for past war crimes that they know they would all turn against them if they tried to.

Bitter memories of old Imperial Japan. The leopard never changes its spots.
So the Americans are on the hook forever because they won the war? Besides, the war ended 73 years ago. I know the stereotype is that Asians have a more acute sense of history than Americans do, but countries in the region are no longer being led by people who lived through that dark time.
neverfail wrote:
Mon Apr 30, 2018 3:10 pm
In particular (as I pointed out in a preceding post) attempting to develop thermonuclear bombs of their own would invite a pre-emptive first strike from the PRC. (Why take the chance of seeing Japan turn militarist once again?) Having Japan shelter behind the US nuclear umbrella like it does though seems perfectly acceptable to Beijing - since it means the decision of whether or not to use the thermonuclear arsenal is out of Japanese hands.
None of that requires U.S. troops in Japan.
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Sertorio
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Re: Vive la France

Post by Sertorio » Tue May 01, 2018 11:25 am

SteveFoerster wrote:
Tue May 01, 2018 9:37 am
Sertorio wrote:
Mon Apr 30, 2018 9:39 am
I have never really understood Japan's willingness to submit themselves to the political diktat of the country which dropped two nuclear bombs on their civilian population. Is this a case of Stockholm syndrome?... But I suppose that sooner or later a prouder generation will take over in Japan...
I know, right? The poor, peaceful Japanese, just sitting there minding their own business, when suddenly, BLAM!, out of nowhere they just get nuked by the U.S. military.
You might be able to immagine the feeling, if you thought of Americans' reactions if Japan had dropped two atomic bombs on New York and on Chicago...

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Re: Vive la France

Post by SteveFoerster » Tue May 01, 2018 11:56 am

Sertorio wrote:
Tue May 01, 2018 11:25 am
SteveFoerster wrote:
Tue May 01, 2018 9:37 am
Sertorio wrote:
Mon Apr 30, 2018 9:39 am
I have never really understood Japan's willingness to submit themselves to the political diktat of the country which dropped two nuclear bombs on their civilian population. Is this a case of Stockholm syndrome?... But I suppose that sooner or later a prouder generation will take over in Japan...
I know, right? The poor, peaceful Japanese, just sitting there minding their own business, when suddenly, BLAM!, out of nowhere they just get nuked by the U.S. military.
You might be able to immagine the feeling, if you thought of Americans' reactions if Japan had dropped two atomic bombs on New York and on Chicago...
I assume in your fantasy scenario that the Americans started the war?
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Sertorio
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Re: Vive la France

Post by Sertorio » Tue May 01, 2018 12:59 pm

SteveFoerster wrote:
Tue May 01, 2018 11:56 am
Sertorio wrote:
Tue May 01, 2018 11:25 am
SteveFoerster wrote:
Tue May 01, 2018 9:37 am
Sertorio wrote:
Mon Apr 30, 2018 9:39 am
I have never really understood Japan's willingness to submit themselves to the political diktat of the country which dropped two nuclear bombs on their civilian population. Is this a case of Stockholm syndrome?... But I suppose that sooner or later a prouder generation will take over in Japan...
I know, right? The poor, peaceful Japanese, just sitting there minding their own business, when suddenly, BLAM!, out of nowhere they just get nuked by the U.S. military.
You might be able to immagine the feeling, if you thought of Americans' reactions if Japan had dropped two atomic bombs on New York and on Chicago...
I assume in your fantasy scenario that the Americans started the war?
They certainly did as much as they could to drive Japan to fire the first shot...

neverfail
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Re: Vive la France

Post by neverfail » Tue May 01, 2018 2:26 pm

Sertorio wrote:
Tue May 01, 2018 12:59 pm
SteveFoerster wrote:
Tue May 01, 2018 11:56 am
Sertorio wrote:
Tue May 01, 2018 11:25 am
SteveFoerster wrote:
Tue May 01, 2018 9:37 am
Sertorio wrote:
Mon Apr 30, 2018 9:39 am
I have never really understood Japan's willingness to submit themselves to the political diktat of the country which dropped two nuclear bombs on their civilian population. Is this a case of Stockholm syndrome?... But I suppose that sooner or later a prouder generation will take over in Japan...
I know, right? The poor, peaceful Japanese, just sitting there minding their own business, when suddenly, BLAM!, out of nowhere they just get nuked by the U.S. military.
You might be able to immagine the feeling, if you thought of Americans' reactions if Japan had dropped two atomic bombs on New York and on Chicago...
I assume in your fantasy scenario that the Americans started the war?
They certainly did as much as they could to drive Japan to fire the first shot...


I know that Sertorio has this annoying fixation of always casting ever foreign state America has ever been at war with as the "victim" of US aggression; but in this case Steve he has a point.

F D Roosevelt was keen to get America into World War Two on the side of Britain but unfortunately was constrained from doing so by the prevailing isolationist sentiment within his country. It meant that both Congress and the media were against American entry into the War (if only to put Britain's chestnuts out of the fire). Without Congressional approval no US president can lead his country to war.

Domestic American politics!

The USA had been Imperial Japan's main supplier of oil. Without oil Japan could not continue pursuing its war of aggression against China (which, please note Sertorio, began in 1937: so much for your myth of Japan being the innocent victim). In June 1941 the Roosevelt administration ordered the US oil companies to cease supplying oil to the Japanese empire.

In 1941 there were five big oil companies that produced most of the world's crude petroleum known as the 5 sisters. Three were American; the fourth was British petroleum whose oil wells were mainly in Iran and the fifth was the Anglo-Dutch consortium the Shell Oil Company whose oil wells were mainly in the Dutch East Indies (present day Indonesia). Normally headquarters in Amsterdam, this corporation's top executive along with the rest of the Dutch establishment fled into exile to the UK with the German invasion of their country in 1940. Living as guests of the UK government, when Churchill's wartime government ordered this firm along with BP to likewise cease supplying oil to Japan it had no choice but to comply.

It meant that the Japanese were cut off from supplies of imported oil as long as they continued their war of aggression against China. Japan, with strict rationing, had only a 3 month supply of oil stored up in oil tanks on their home turf.

Too humiliating for their government to give up their war against China. They needed to grab a captive supply of oil fast. The only country with such a wealth of oil reasonably close to Japan were the Dutch East Indies. To ensure that their oil tankers would not be interdicted en-route by a foreign power they had to get rid of the US Pacific fleet. Hence the bombing of Pearl Harbour with was meant to be only their means to that end.

Yes, it was a grubby way of getting the USA into the War on Roosevelt's part, I agree! But what was the alternative? To let the Axis powers win the war? In late 1941 Britain was reeling whilst the Soviet Union was on the ropes. It took the entry of the USA to finally turn the war around against the Fascists.
................................................................................
Would you have preferred to have seen the Axis powers win to reshape the world to their own image and likeness, Sertorio? If that were your preference than as a purported socialist I can only draw the conclusion that you must be a damnable hypocrite.

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