Trump's Revenge: US floods EU with oil

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Doc
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Re: Trump's Revenge: US floods EU with oil

Post by Doc » Tue May 01, 2018 3:08 pm

Sertorio wrote:
Tue May 01, 2018 3:36 am
Doc wrote:
Mon Apr 30, 2018 11:54 pm

Solar and wind are not cheaper than oil. THere is lenty og Natural Gas in Europe particularly France but it is illegal to drill for it there as well

But answer this question -- How is it possible that the US is the only developed nation to meet the Kyoto treaty even though it never even ratified it?
Price is important, but more important is environment protection.

I was not aware of the US meeting the Kyoto treaty set limits. But what about the Paris treaty?...
THe Paris treaty was intended to end the EU's embarrassment of not meeting the agreed upon Kyoto amounts of CO2 emissions. The US did not officially agree yet is the only major country that is even close to meeting those goals. It was done due to Fracking Natural Gas. Which is more important controlling CO2 or Fracking? Or does the EU want to have it cake and eat it to?
“"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros

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SteveFoerster
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Re: globalising your economy enhances wealth but diminishes national security.

Post by SteveFoerster » Thu May 03, 2018 7:19 pm

Sertorio wrote:
Tue May 01, 2018 12:56 pm
SteveFoerster wrote:
Tue May 01, 2018 11:58 am

Neither capitalism nor socialism "want" anything, only individuals do. And in both cases individuals want the same thing, to do well. The difference is that a market system provides an honest way for that to happen through competition, whereas a socialist system only provides the dishonest way of corruption.
You must be kidding!... In capitalism one cares only about one's own good, even if one does not wish ill to other people. In socialism one actively tries to achieve the common good, even if some people will not mind too much sacrificing the common good to promote one's own interest. Also, a market system is compatible with socialism, albeit not an unregulated market. And corruption is as rift in capitalism as in socialism. You should forget all those simplistic slogans which are promoted in your society, in order to make people accept a system which only benefits a few...
Really, when you're a socialist the last thing you should be is dismissive of simplistic sloganeering.
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cassowary
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Re: globalising your economy enhances wealth but diminishes national security.

Post by cassowary » Thu May 03, 2018 8:20 pm

Sertorio wrote:
Tue May 01, 2018 12:56 pm

You must be kidding!... In capitalism one cares only about one's own good, even if one does not wish ill to other people. In socialism one actively tries to achieve the common good, even if some people will not mind too much sacrificing the common good to promote one's own interest.
People in both systems care only for their own good. The only exception are deeply religious people. They sacrifice their own earthly self-interests for the common good eg Mother Theresa. But that's only because they expect rewards in heaven.

So Socialism is really trying to squeeze a square peg (human nature) into a round hole (Socialism). That's why it failed time and again.
Also, a market system is compatible with socialism, albeit not an unregulated market.
That depends on how you define Socialism. You must be thinking of a welfare state sitting on top of a market economy eg Scandinavian economies. Equality is enforced to a large extent by taxing the more successful to subsidize those less so. This is better than the old school socialism where the state (supposedly on behalf of the workers) owns the means of production (eg farms and factories).

But even so, it requires high taxes which will hobble the economy. A faste growing economy will eventually benefit everyone even though there is inequality. Giving enough time, the bottom quintile income group of a fast-growing economy will live better than an average person (third quintile) in a slow-growing economy.

neverfail
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Re: globalising your economy enhances wealth but diminishes national security.

Post by neverfail » Thu May 03, 2018 9:59 pm

Sertorio wrote:
Tue May 01, 2018 12:56 pm

You must be kidding!... In capitalism one cares only about one's own good, even if one does not wish ill to other people. In socialism one actively tries to achieve the common good, even if some people will not mind too much sacrificing the common good to promote one's own interest.
cassowary wrote:
Thu May 03, 2018 8:20 pm
People in both systems care only for their own good. The only exception are deeply religious people. They sacrifice their own earthly self-interests for the common good eg Mother Theresa. But that's only because they expect rewards in heaven.

So Socialism is really trying to squeeze a square peg (human nature) into a round hole (Socialism). That's why it failed time and again.
That is an interesting point. Sertorio, please share with me (and all of us); how do you view socialism? Do you perceive it as a power structure or as a set of abstract ethical standards? If the former then I cannot see how it can fail to promote inequality. All power structures seem to do that. If the latter then how do you induce all men (and all women) to abide by the same otherwise laudable high ethical standard in their behaviour?
Sertorio wrote:
Tue May 01, 2018 12:56 pm
Also, a market system is compatible with socialism, albeit not an unregulated market.
cassowary wrote:
Thu May 03, 2018 8:20 pm
That depends on how you define Socialism. You must be thinking of a welfare state sitting on top of a market economy eg Scandinavian economies. Equality is enforced to a large extent by taxing the more successful to subsidize those less so. This is better than the old school socialism where the state (supposedly on behalf of the workers) owns the means of production (eg farms and factories).

But even so, it requires high taxes which will hobble the economy. A faste growing economy will eventually benefit everyone even though there is inequality. Giving enough time, the bottom quintile income group of a fast-growing economy will live better than an average person (third quintile) in a slow-growing economy.
Sertorio, I do not entirely agree with Cass on this yet I am not in total disagreement with him either. Let me comment that I perceive cass as painting too simplistic a hypothetical picture for us. In real life it is not so simple.

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cassowary
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Re: globalising your economy enhances wealth but diminishes national security.

Post by cassowary » Thu May 03, 2018 10:29 pm

neverfail wrote:
Thu May 03, 2018 9:59 pm
Sertorio wrote:
Tue May 01, 2018 12:56 pm

You must be kidding!... In capitalism one cares only about one's own good, even if one does not wish ill to other people. In socialism one actively tries to achieve the common good, even if some people will not mind too much sacrificing the common good to promote one's own interest.
cassowary wrote:
Thu May 03, 2018 8:20 pm
People in both systems care only for their own good. The only exception are deeply religious people. They sacrifice their own earthly self-interests for the common good eg Mother Theresa. But that's only because they expect rewards in heaven.

So Socialism is really trying to squeeze a square peg (human nature) into a round hole (Socialism). That's why it failed time and again.
That is an interesting point. Sertorio, please share with me (and all of us); how do you view socialism? Do you perceive it as a power structure or as a set of abstract ethical standards? If the former then I cannot see how it can fail to promote inequality. All power structures seem to do that. If the latter then how do you induce all men (and all women) to abide by the same otherwise laudable high ethical standard in their behaviour?
Sertorio wrote:
Tue May 01, 2018 12:56 pm
Also, a market system is compatible with socialism, albeit not an unregulated market.
cassowary wrote:
Thu May 03, 2018 8:20 pm
That depends on how you define Socialism. You must be thinking of a welfare state sitting on top of a market economy eg Scandinavian economies. Equality is enforced to a large extent by taxing the more successful to subsidize those less so. This is better than the old school socialism where the state (supposedly on behalf of the workers) owns the means of production (eg farms and factories).

But even so, it requires high taxes which will hobble the economy. A faste growing economy will eventually benefit everyone even though there is inequality. Giving enough time, the bottom quintile income group of a fast-growing economy will live better than an average person (third quintile) in a slow-growing economy.
Sertorio, I do not entirely agree with Cass on this yet I am not in total disagreement with him either. Let me comment that I perceive cass as painting too simplistic a hypothetical picture for us. In real life it is not so simple.










I would like to add to what Neverfail said. Socialism requires a powerful government to implement. Thus you will have some very powerful people. Money will always flow from those with less to those with more power. So you end up with inequality too. You can't eliminate inequality. It is a part of nature.

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Sertorio
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Re: Trump's Revenge: US floods EU with oil

Post by Sertorio » Fri May 04, 2018 1:53 am

My, my!... These last few posts are truly worth reading and thinking about. Whatever Cass is presently smoking - whether old fashioned opium or pot - is doing wonders!... I will comment on your well thought posts, but give me a while to put it all together... :P

Jim the Moron
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Re: Trump's Revenge: US floods EU with oil

Post by Jim the Moron » Fri May 04, 2018 9:33 am

Sorry to disturb yet another digression into socialism vs capitalism, but here's an update on our theme -

https://oilprice.com/Energy/Energy-Gene ... orter.html

". . . the US is poised to surpass Saudi Arabia next year as the world's largest exporter of crude and oil products."

neverfail
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Re: Trump's Revenge: US floods EU with oil

Post by neverfail » Fri May 04, 2018 3:38 pm

Jim the Moron wrote:
Fri May 04, 2018 9:33 am
Sorry to disturb yet another digression into socialism vs capitalism, but here's an update on our theme -

https://oilprice.com/Energy/Energy-Gene ... orter.html

". . . the US is poised to surpass Saudi Arabia next year as the world's largest exporter of crude and oil products."
Jim, you are right in defining this socialism vs capitalism red herring by Cassowary as a digression.

Saudi Arabia; backwater of the Islamic dark ages, did not become oil rich because it practiced capitalism. It did so because of an unsolicited gift from God: the oil just happened to be there in the ground waiting to be discovered. The best that can be said about the Saudi reactionary monarchy in the discovery and development of these reserves is that they were shrewd enough not to stand in the way of the oil drillers. They have been riding on the back of the uncovered bounty ever since.

Other people's capitalism, not their own!

Might I suggest that in like manner the USA is currently enjoying its shale oil surplus because, likewise, the shale beds were there in its subsoil and all other prevailing conditions favoured its profitable development.

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cassowary
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Re: Trump's Revenge: US floods EU with oil

Post by cassowary » Sat May 05, 2018 4:19 am

From your link, Jim:
As global oil markets shift their attention from U.S. shale oil production back to a resurgent Saudi Arabia and Russia and geopolitical concerns bearing down on oil prices, Citigroup said last Wednesday that the U.S. is poised to surpass Saudi Arabia next year as the world’s largest exporter of crude and oil products.

The U.S. exported a record 8.3 million barrels per day (bpd) last week of crude oil and petroleum products, the government also said Wednesday. Top crude oil exporter Saudi Arabia’s, for its part, exported 9.3 million bpd in January, while Russia exported 7.4 million bpd, the bank added.
I think Putin must be worried. If he and the Saudis keep oil price high, they must cut their production. This will be eagerly taken over by US oil. If Putin and the Saudis decide to defend their market share, they must cut oil price. Either way, Putin is in trouble. Say bye bye to Putin's grand scheme to revive the Russian empire.

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Re: Trump's Revenge: US floods EU with oil

Post by SteveFoerster » Sat May 05, 2018 2:35 pm

neverfail wrote:
Fri May 04, 2018 3:38 pm
Saudi Arabia; backwater of the Islamic dark ages,
In the interest of being relentlessly fair, Arabia wasn't always in the dark ages, but during the Caliphate period was a bright spot in the world.
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