I told you so,

Discussion of current events
Post Reply
User avatar
cassowary
Posts: 1919
Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2016 11:30 pm

I told you so,

Post by cassowary » Fri Apr 06, 2018 11:07 am

China's rise undermines democracy. People around the world are losing faith in democracy and see China's dictatorial government as a model.

http://www.breitbart.com/london/2018/04 ... democracy/

Fox Vincente slams democracy and praises China.

You need to reform democracy if you are to win.

User avatar
dagbay
Posts: 217
Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2016 8:27 pm

Re: I told you so,

Post by dagbay » Fri Apr 06, 2018 12:32 pm

So does Erdugan and in fact the EU bureaucrats of course Putin applauds the cocept as well. There is a carde of totalitarians it seems in the top level posts of the US government who regard democracy as inconvenient or worse only a pretence.

Democracy is fragile and requires a lot from the citizens and their elected officials. For me it is still the best there is but world wide I know that I am in the minority.
I'd rather be diving or flying alas for now I am on terra firma.

User avatar
SteveFoerster
Posts: 1344
Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2016 7:17 pm
Location: Northern Virginia, USA and Dominica, West Indies
Contact:

Re: I told you so,

Post by SteveFoerster » Fri Apr 06, 2018 3:16 pm

dagbay wrote:
Fri Apr 06, 2018 12:32 pm
So does Erdugan and in fact the EU bureaucrats of course Putin applauds the cocept as well. There is a carde of totalitarians it seems in the top level posts of the US government who regard democracy as inconvenient or worse only a pretence.

Democracy is fragile and requires a lot from the citizens and their elected officials. For me it is still the best there is but world wide I know that I am in the minority.
Democracy in the U.S. is largely a pretense which serves primarily to fool the masses into believing they have meaningful control over Washington.
Writer, technologist, educator, gadfly.
President of New World University: http://newworld.ac

neverfail
Posts: 1993
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2016 3:47 am

Re: I told you so,

Post by neverfail » Fri Apr 06, 2018 4:38 pm

SteveFoerster wrote:
Fri Apr 06, 2018 3:16 pm
dagbay wrote:
Fri Apr 06, 2018 12:32 pm
So does Erdugan and in fact the EU bureaucrats of course Putin applauds the cocept as well. There is a carde of totalitarians it seems in the top level posts of the US government who regard democracy as inconvenient or worse only a pretence.

Democracy is fragile and requires a lot from the citizens and their elected officials. For me it is still the best there is but world wide I know that I am in the minority.
Democracy in the U.S. is largely a pretense which serves primarily to fool the masses into believing they have meaningful control over Washington.
How did civic mindedness in the US degenerate to that low point, Steve?

neverfail
Posts: 1993
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2016 3:47 am

Re: I told you so,

Post by neverfail » Fri Apr 06, 2018 4:55 pm

Postscript to above: there are some parts of the world where the system of elected oligarchy we call democracy still works quite well: but of course these tend to be obscure places like my country and Canada that attract very little publicity. Higher profile places like the US and the UK that are currently in the throes of a widespread loss of public confidence, being more "newsworthy" attract all of the publicity whilst the success stories are ignored.

I suspect that the travails of the UK are transitory but those of the UDS are long term and structural. The founders of the US constitution had enough foresight to establish a system of checks and balances against abuse of power but, alas. such a crude set that politics being the ruthless game is it has since only served to provide Americans with substandard government.

Cassowary; please CEASE to equate "democracy" and "the United States" as though the two were one and the same, would you?. The former is sound but the latter is crying out for structural reform. The catch here is that the USA is so structured within as to be well nigh unreformable expect via a revolutionary upheaval.

User avatar
SteveFoerster
Posts: 1344
Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2016 7:17 pm
Location: Northern Virginia, USA and Dominica, West Indies
Contact:

Re: I told you so,

Post by SteveFoerster » Fri Apr 06, 2018 5:20 pm

neverfail wrote:
Fri Apr 06, 2018 4:38 pm
SteveFoerster wrote:
Fri Apr 06, 2018 3:16 pm
dagbay wrote:
Fri Apr 06, 2018 12:32 pm
So does Erdugan and in fact the EU bureaucrats of course Putin applauds the cocept as well. There is a carde of totalitarians it seems in the top level posts of the US government who regard democracy as inconvenient or worse only a pretence.

Democracy is fragile and requires a lot from the citizens and their elected officials. For me it is still the best there is but world wide I know that I am in the minority.
Democracy in the U.S. is largely a pretense which serves primarily to fool the masses into believing they have meaningful control over Washington.
How did civic mindedness in the US degenerate to that low point, Steve?
You could substitute "U.S." and "Washington" for the names of many ostensibly democratic countries and related metonyms.
Writer, technologist, educator, gadfly.
President of New World University: http://newworld.ac

User avatar
cassowary
Posts: 1919
Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2016 11:30 pm

Re: I told you so,

Post by cassowary » Sat Apr 07, 2018 3:19 pm

neverfail wrote:
Fri Apr 06, 2018 4:55 pm

Cassowary; please CEASE to equate "democracy" and "the United States" as though the two were one and the same, would you?. The former is sound but the latter is crying out for structural reform. The catch here is that the USA is so structured within as to be well nigh unreformable expect via a revolutionary upheaval.
American democracy is the one I am most familiar with. So naturally, I equate the practice of democracy with what I see happening in the US. I know very little about Australian politics.

neverfail
Posts: 1993
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2016 3:47 am

Re: I told you so,

Post by neverfail » Sat Apr 07, 2018 4:05 pm

cassowary wrote:
Sat Apr 07, 2018 3:19 pm
neverfail wrote:
Fri Apr 06, 2018 4:55 pm

Cassowary; please CEASE to equate "democracy" and "the United States" as though the two were one and the same, would you?. The former is sound but the latter is crying out for structural reform. The catch here is that the USA is so structured within as to be well nigh unreformable expect via a revolutionary upheaval.
American democracy is the one I am most familiar with. So naturally, I equate the practice of democracy with what I see happening in the US. I know very little about Australian politics.
I can see that Cass. Well, please be aware that the Western democracies are not of one standard make and model. It might pay you to educate yourself in how others work for a comparison.
.............................................................................................................................

Cass, I would like to suggest to you that the rise of China is a threat only to those many shaky (so called) democracies of recent derivation. Short of China initiating a global war of conquest (which would be bound to be thermonuclear anyway) those democracies where freely and fairly elected government is an entrenched tradition (supported by a web of socially shared functioning institutions) will continue to function as such.

"Democracy" went into retreat during the 1930's Great Depression era throughout central and eastern Europe - not because of the near presence of the Soviet Union but because of public disenchantment with the perpetual multi- factional bickering and failure to enact policies that actually worked. In other words, too much politics and not enough government. Countries like Poland, the Baltics, Hungary, etc had emerged from the wreckage of former long lived empires after World War One and had enjoyed no previous experience with national sovereignty, self-government, within living memory. Consequently, public opinion was still inclined to equate strong, decisive government with autocratic rule: just like within the Russian Federation in our day. It is significant that in these very same countries today a similar sort of public disenchantment with the democratic process now seems to be setting in threatening their still fledgling, shaky democratic institutions - true to form.

By contrast and comparison; in Britain, France and The Low Countries of Europe along with Switzerland democracy survived intact right throughout the Depression whilst in Scandinavia their democratic traditions wereif anything strengthened. Likewise, in Canada, Australia and New Zealand they were never seriously under threat. In the USA, despite the shortcomings in their structure of government, it still survived all challenges.

The Great Depression truly separated the sheep from the goats. I have reason to believe that the rise of China will have a broadly similar effect. As for the ones that fall by the wayside, will these be any loss?

Post Reply