Unions happy with Trump's Steel & Aluminum tariffs

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Milo
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Re: Unions happy with Trump's Steel & Aluminum tariffs

Post by Milo » Mon Mar 05, 2018 12:40 pm

My favorite generalization about trade is that everyone talks free trade and practices mercantilism, as much as they can get away with.

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cassowary
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Re: Unions happy with Trump's Steel & Aluminum tariffs

Post by cassowary » Mon Mar 05, 2018 8:41 pm

Milo wrote:
Mon Mar 05, 2018 9:10 am
Economics has no hard and fast rules. So far the economy is doing well under Trump and it may very well continue to. One might argue that Trump can do very little about the economy but he gets to take credit.
Or take the blame, if things go wrong.

There are hard and fast rules in economics. I think what you mean is that there are so many factors that affect the economy that is beyond any government's control. So, Trump should not always get credit when things go well and blame when things go wrong.

Since there are hard and fast rules in economics, Trump should be given credit for implementing policies that help the economy and brickbats for policies that are bad for the economy.

Tax cuts and deregulation are good for the economy and Trump should be thrown roses for that. Protectionism is bad for the economy and Trump should be thrown rotten tomatoes for that. Those are some of the rules of economics.

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Milo
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Re: Unions happy with Trump's Steel & Aluminum tariffs

Post by Milo » Mon Mar 05, 2018 9:32 pm

cassowary wrote:
Mon Mar 05, 2018 8:41 pm
Milo wrote:
Mon Mar 05, 2018 9:10 am
Economics has no hard and fast rules. So far the economy is doing well under Trump and it may very well continue to. One might argue that Trump can do very little about the economy but he gets to take credit.
Or take the blame, if things go wrong.

There are hard and fast rules in economics. I think what you mean is that there are so many factors that affect the economy that is beyond any government's control. So, Trump should not always get credit when things go well and blame when things go wrong.

Since there are hard and fast rules in economics, Trump should be given credit for implementing policies that help the economy and brickbats for policies that are bad for the economy.

Tax cuts and deregulation are good for the economy and Trump should be thrown roses for that. Protectionism is bad for the economy and Trump should be thrown rotten tomatoes for that. Those are some of the rules of economics.
History is replete with protectionist economies that prospered:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercantilism#History

And free market ones that went bust:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Depression

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Re: Unions happy with Trump's Steel & Aluminum tariffs

Post by SteveFoerster » Tue Mar 06, 2018 11:32 am

Milo wrote:
Mon Mar 05, 2018 9:32 pm
And free market ones that went bust:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Depression
Another view: http://www.freedomworks.org/content/deb ... depression
Writer, technologist, educator, gadfly.
President of New World University: http://newworld.ac

neverfail
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Re: Unions happy with Trump's Steel & Aluminum tariffs

Post by neverfail » Tue Mar 06, 2018 11:59 am

Milo wrote:
Mon Mar 05, 2018 9:10 am


History is replete with protectionist economies that prospered:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercantilism#History
Thanks Milo.

Reading that gave me inspiration for something that should have been obvious but which had previously escaped my attention. Mercantilism was the father of Western imperialism. Each and every European state with an Atlantic seaboard wanted to be as self-sufficient unto itself in all things. But the discovery of a new world and all of its possibilities opened their eyes to the fact that they could not be that so by way of atonement they extended their territorial masses and spheres of influence to lands overseas endowed with resources and sources of wealth that theirs lacked.

The more modern resolution to this quandary is today's free markets internationalism
Milo wrote:
Mon Mar 05, 2018 9:10 am
And free market ones that went bust:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Depression
No! The USA was not then and is still not today a free market economy or anything close to being one. Quite apart from The Fed, it had high protectionist tariff for many of their manufacturing industries and in the case of agriculture quotas, even I believe outright bans, on imports of foreign farm produce. I think the illusion that the USA was/is free market capitalist has been fostered by the fact that their economy is of such enormous critical mass size that it was/is home to a huge number of businesses: so competition among them is all the more fierce.

Safe to say that in the US they believe in capitalism without believing in free markets.

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Milo
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Re: Unions happy with Trump's Steel & Aluminum tariffs

Post by Milo » Tue Mar 06, 2018 1:16 pm

neverfail wrote:
Tue Mar 06, 2018 11:59 am
Milo wrote:
Mon Mar 05, 2018 9:10 am


History is replete with protectionist economies that prospered:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercantilism#History
Thanks Milo.

Reading that gave me inspiration for something that should have been obvious but which had previously escaped my attention. Mercantilism was the father of Western imperialism. Each and every European state with an Atlantic seaboard wanted to be as self-sufficient unto itself in all things. But the discovery of a new world and all of its possibilities opened their eyes to the fact that they could not be that so by way of atonement they extended their territorial masses and spheres of influence to lands overseas endowed with resources and sources of wealth that theirs lacked.

The more modern resolution to this quandary is today's free markets internationalism
Milo wrote:
Mon Mar 05, 2018 9:10 am
And free market ones that went bust:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Depression
No! The USA was not then and is still not today a free market economy or anything close to being one. Quite apart from The Fed, it had high protectionist tariff for many of their manufacturing industries and in the case of agriculture quotas, even I believe outright bans, on imports of foreign farm produce. I think the illusion that the USA was/is free market capitalist has been fostered by the fact that their economy is of such enormous critical mass size that it was/is home to a huge number of businesses: so competition among them is all the more fierce.

Safe to say that in the US they believe in capitalism without believing in free markets.
Neverfail, there is not such thing as a free market in the real world and what you say about the US at that time is true s but the market back then was quite unfettered in many ways. I argue that it was so unfettered that it was a freer market than anything we have seen since.

Jim the Moron
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Re: Unions happy with Trump's Steel & Aluminum tariffs

Post by Jim the Moron » Tue Mar 06, 2018 1:37 pm

Milo wrote:
Tue Mar 06, 2018 1:16 pm
neverfail wrote:
Tue Mar 06, 2018 11:59 am
Milo wrote:
Mon Mar 05, 2018 9:10 am


History is replete with protectionist economies that prospered:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercantilism#History
Thanks Milo.

Reading that gave me inspiration for something that should have been obvious but which had previously escaped my attention. Mercantilism was the father of Western imperialism. Each and every European state with an Atlantic seaboard wanted to be as self-sufficient unto itself in all things. But the discovery of a new world and all of its possibilities opened their eyes to the fact that they could not be that so by way of atonement they extended their territorial masses and spheres of influence to lands overseas endowed with resources and sources of wealth that theirs lacked.

The more modern resolution to this quandary is today's free markets internationalism
Milo wrote:
Mon Mar 05, 2018 9:10 am
And free market ones that went bust:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Depression
No! The USA was not then and is still not today a free market economy or anything close to being one. Quite apart from The Fed, it had high protectionist tariff for many of their manufacturing industries and in the case of agriculture quotas, even I believe outright bans, on imports of foreign farm produce. I think the illusion that the USA was/is free market capitalist has been fostered by the fact that their economy is of such enormous critical mass size that it was/is home to a huge number of businesses: so competition among them is all the more fierce.

Safe to say that in the US they believe in capitalism without believing in free markets.
Neverfail, there is not such thing as a free market in the real world and what you say about the US at that time is true s but the market back then was quite unfettered in many ways. I argue that it was so unfettered that it was a freer market than anything we have seen since.

Jim the Moron
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Re: Unions happy with Trump's Steel & Aluminum tariffs

Post by Jim the Moron » Tue Mar 06, 2018 1:50 pm

Jim the Moron wrote:
Tue Mar 06, 2018 1:37 pm
Milo wrote:
Tue Mar 06, 2018 1:16 pm
neverfail wrote:
Tue Mar 06, 2018 11:59 am
Milo wrote:
Mon Mar 05, 2018 9:10 am


History is replete with protectionist economies that prospered:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercantilism#History
Thanks Milo.

Reading that gave me inspiration for something that should have been obvious but which had previously escaped my attention. Mercantilism was the father of Western imperialism. Each and every European state with an Atlantic seaboard wanted to be as self-sufficient unto itself in all things. But the discovery of a new world and all of its possibilities opened their eyes to the fact that they could not be that so by way of atonement they extended their territorial masses and spheres of influence to lands overseas endowed with resources and sources of wealth that theirs lacked.

The more modern resolution to this quandary is today's free markets internationalism
Milo wrote:
Mon Mar 05, 2018 9:10 am
And free market ones that went bust:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Depression
No! The USA was not then and is still not today a free market economy or anything close to being one. Quite apart from The Fed, it had high protectionist tariff for many of their manufacturing industries and in the case of agriculture quotas, even I believe outright bans, on imports of foreign farm produce. I think the illusion that the USA was/is free market capitalist has been fostered by the fact that their economy is of such enormous critical mass size that it was/is home to a huge number of businesses: so competition among them is all the more fierce.

Safe to say that in the US they believe in capitalism without believing in free markets.
Neverfail, there is not such thing as a free market in the real world and what you say about the US at that time is true s but the market back then was quite unfettered in many ways. I argue that it was so unfettered that it was a freer market than anything we have seen since.
Interesting discussion. But it is unhelpful (to say the least) to present falsehoods as facts to support an argument (e.g.the US having "outright bans on imports of foreign farm produce"). Outside of items excluded for public health reasons, I know of no examples (please correct me if otherwise). If we are speaking of Russia, well, those folks prohibit importation of US agricultural products.

neverfail
Posts: 1965
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Re: Unions happy with Trump's Steel & Aluminum tariffs

Post by neverfail » Thu Mar 08, 2018 2:34 am

Milo wrote:
Tue Mar 06, 2018 1:16 pm


Neverfail, there is not such thing as a free market in the real world and what you say about the US at that time is true s but the market back then was quite unfettered in many ways. I argue that it was so unfettered that it was a freer market than anything we have seen since.
Well, of course there is no such thing as an absolutely free market. If they tried out such an entity it would likely swiftly disintegrate due to the chaos. It is all a matter of degree and nuance: which mix is best for your country.

I disagree with your last sentence. Whilst the US economy of the 1920's might have been relatively unregulated compared to now (so was everyone else's) it was still more highly protected by tariffs and quotas (and became even worse during the 1930's thanks to Smoot-Hawley). By contrast the US since the end of World War Two (beginning with the Bretton Woods agreement, 1944) has progressively lowered tariffs on imported products - with the exception of products of rural origin. The Yanks still treat their agriculture as a sacred cow.

neverfail
Posts: 1965
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2016 3:47 am

Re: Unions happy with Trump's Steel & Aluminum tariffs

Post by neverfail » Thu Mar 08, 2018 2:50 am

Jim the Moron wrote:
Tue Mar 06, 2018 1:50 pm


Interesting discussion. But it is unhelpful (to say the least) to present falsehoods as facts to support an argument (e.g.the US having "outright bans on imports of foreign farm produce"). Outside of items excluded for public health reasons, I know of no examples (please correct me if otherwise). If we are speaking of Russia, well, those folks prohibit importation of US agricultural products.
I will be glad to respond to your challenge to enlighten you JIM.

Despite having a (near useless) free trade treaty with the US, there are still quotas limiting the amount of most farm products that Australia can export to the USA. There are number of farm products that Australian farmers (and ranchers) produce more cost effectively than their American peers. As a result Australia is exporting to the US way below this country's capacity to do so. You are likely unaware (to cite one example) that Australian wheat farmers grow wheat using the same inputs of capital and technology at approx. HALF the cost of US wheat farmers. That cannot be because of favourable natural conditions like climate and better soil - in both cases the US wheatlands are better endowed than those of Australia. It would therefore pay the US to put some of its wheatlands out of production and buy some of its wheat from my country. But of course your damned farm lobby will always prevail on Congress so that they never have to suffer any such competition from imports.

Australia, an old ally of the US, is not the only country by any means disaffected by such policies. When it comes to business and politics being a steady and reliable friend does not seem to count for anything. :(

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