Do Ukrainians Truly Want to Keep Fighting?

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SteveFoerster
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Re: Do Ukrainians Truly Want to Keep Fighting?

Post by SteveFoerster » Wed Jul 27, 2022 3:28 pm

Again, that's a comment you would only make if you saw no difference between those who invade other countries and those who successfully fend off invaders and end their regimes.
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cassowary
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Re: Do Ukrainians Truly Want to Keep Fighting?

Post by cassowary » Wed Jul 27, 2022 8:11 pm

Sertorio wrote:
Wed Jul 27, 2022 8:07 am
SteveFoerster wrote:
Wed Jul 27, 2022 8:03 am
Sertorio wrote:
Wed Jul 27, 2022 7:46 am
SteveFoerster wrote:
Wed Jul 27, 2022 7:39 am
neverfail wrote:
Wed Jul 27, 2022 5:47 am
Sertorio wrote:
Wed Jul 27, 2022 12:14 am

The issue, raised by you, was whether Russia was despicable because it would not stop its military operation until it had obtained full satisfaction. If that was the case, so would the Allies be despicable in 1918 and 1945 because they also refused to stop the war until they had obtained full satisfaction, meaning the unconditional surrender of Germany and Japan.
Spurious comparison Sertorio.

(i am sure that you know it too.)
He's so good at believing only what he wants to believe that I'm honestly not even sure he does know it.

I'm sure it was clear to everyone else that what I find despicable is what Russia's "full satisfaction" entails, that their ends are evil as are their means to it, not that someone who finds themselves in a war would try to win it.
You mentioned "full satisfaction" without any qualification.

That doesn't mean you get to attach any meaning that you please to that.
Sertorio wrote:
Wed Jul 27, 2022 7:46 am
To Russia full satisfaction is winning the war and fulfilling its objectives, namely keeping the Ukraine outside NATO and protecting the human rights of ethnic Russians in the Ukraine. Ends which do not seem particularly evil to me...
To Russia, full satisfaction includes annexing as much of Ukraine as they can get away with. It's an evil end, attemptedly being reached through the evil means of murder and destruction.
Lots of borders were changed - forcefully - at the end of both world wars. If annexing Crimea is evil, so was annexing Alsace, Lorraine and East Prussia.
But Germany was an aggressor who lost the war. So they deserved to lose territory because they were the aggressor who tried conquering others. Ukraine lost the Crimea in 2014 because of Russian aggression. So Russia is the bad one.
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neverfail
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Re: Do Ukrainians Truly Want to Keep Fighting?

Post by neverfail » Thu Jul 28, 2022 3:07 pm

Sertorio wrote:
Wed Jul 27, 2022 8:07 am
Lots of borders were changed - forcefully - at the end of both world wars. If annexing Crimea is evil, so was annexing Alsace, Lorraine and East Prussia.
Yes, lots of borders have been changed, but how many of them have ever been changed justly?

(But then; since when have any of your posts ever revealed a grasp of the concept of natural justice?)

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Sertorio
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Re: Do Ukrainians Truly Want to Keep Fighting?

Post by Sertorio » Thu Jul 28, 2022 3:30 pm

neverfail wrote:
Thu Jul 28, 2022 3:07 pm
Sertorio wrote:
Wed Jul 27, 2022 8:07 am
Lots of borders were changed - forcefully - at the end of both world wars. If annexing Crimea is evil, so was annexing Alsace, Lorraine and East Prussia.
Yes, lots of borders have been changed, but how many of them have ever been changed justly?

(But then; since when have any of your posts ever revealed a grasp of the concept of natural justice?)
You have a funny idea of natural justice. As far as most countries are concerned the only natural thing existing is injustice...

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SteveFoerster
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Re: Do Ukrainians Truly Want to Keep Fighting?

Post by SteveFoerster » Thu Jul 28, 2022 4:41 pm

Sertorio wrote:
Thu Jul 28, 2022 3:30 pm
neverfail wrote:
Thu Jul 28, 2022 3:07 pm
Sertorio wrote:
Wed Jul 27, 2022 8:07 am
Lots of borders were changed - forcefully - at the end of both world wars. If annexing Crimea is evil, so was annexing Alsace, Lorraine and East Prussia.
Yes, lots of borders have been changed, but how many of them have ever been changed justly?

(But then; since when have any of your posts ever revealed a grasp of the concept of natural justice?)
You have a funny idea of natural justice. As far as most countries are concerned the only natural thing existing is injustice...
And the more that is true for a country, the more you praise it.
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Sertorio
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Re: Do Ukrainians Truly Want to Keep Fighting?

Post by Sertorio » Fri Jul 29, 2022 12:15 am

SteveFoerster wrote:
Thu Jul 28, 2022 4:41 pm
Sertorio wrote:
Thu Jul 28, 2022 3:30 pm
neverfail wrote:
Thu Jul 28, 2022 3:07 pm
Sertorio wrote:
Wed Jul 27, 2022 8:07 am
Lots of borders were changed - forcefully - at the end of both world wars. If annexing Crimea is evil, so was annexing Alsace, Lorraine and East Prussia.
Yes, lots of borders have been changed, but how many of them have ever been changed justly?

(But then; since when have any of your posts ever revealed a grasp of the concept of natural justice?)
You have a funny idea of natural justice. As far as most countries are concerned the only natural thing existing is injustice...
And the more that is true for a country, the more you praise it.
If that was so I would be praising the US non-stop...

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