Finland & Sweden about to join NATO

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SteveFoerster
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Re: Finland & Sweden about to join NATO

Post by SteveFoerster » Thu Jul 28, 2022 4:45 pm

neverfail wrote:
Thu Jul 28, 2022 3:13 pm
As for NATO: the US has had to assume leadership of the alliance because frankly none of NATO's European member states are fit for the job.
The Germans would probably be the best at it, but even eighty years later that's apparently a bit awkward.
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Sertorio
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Re: Finland & Sweden about to join NATO

Post by Sertorio » Fri Jul 29, 2022 12:17 am

SteveFoerster wrote:
Thu Jul 28, 2022 4:45 pm
neverfail wrote:
Thu Jul 28, 2022 3:13 pm
As for NATO: the US has had to assume leadership of the alliance because frankly none of NATO's European member states are fit for the job.
The Germans would probably be the best at it, but even eighty years later that's apparently a bit awkward.
Leadership... Who the fuck needs it?... What we need is mutual respect, and that's something NATO cannot produce...

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cassowary
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Re: Finland & Sweden about to join NATO

Post by cassowary » Fri Jul 29, 2022 5:36 am

Sertorio wrote:
Fri Jul 29, 2022 12:17 am
SteveFoerster wrote:
Thu Jul 28, 2022 4:45 pm
neverfail wrote:
Thu Jul 28, 2022 3:13 pm
As for NATO: the US has had to assume leadership of the alliance because frankly none of NATO's European member states are fit for the job.
The Germans would probably be the best at it, but even eighty years later that's apparently a bit awkward.
Leadership... Who the fuck needs it?... What we need is mutual respect, and that's something NATO cannot produce...
I think Nato countries respect one another. But somebody has got to be the leader and the rest must be willing to follow.
The Imp :D

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SteveFoerster
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Re: Finland & Sweden about to join NATO

Post by SteveFoerster » Fri Jul 29, 2022 6:10 am

cassowary wrote:
Fri Jul 29, 2022 5:36 am
Sertorio wrote:
Fri Jul 29, 2022 12:17 am
SteveFoerster wrote:
Thu Jul 28, 2022 4:45 pm
neverfail wrote:
Thu Jul 28, 2022 3:13 pm
As for NATO: the US has had to assume leadership of the alliance because frankly none of NATO's European member states are fit for the job.
The Germans would probably be the best at it, but even eighty years later that's apparently a bit awkward.
Leadership... Who the fuck needs it?... What we need is mutual respect, and that's something NATO cannot produce...
I think Nato countries respect one another. But somebody has got to be the leader and the rest must be willing to follow.
Well, in day-to-day operations, perhaps. But in terms of overall policy, especially for something as far-reaching as military policy, there must be consensus.
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cassowary
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Re: Finland & Sweden about to join NATO

Post by cassowary » Fri Jul 29, 2022 6:34 am

SteveFoerster wrote:
Fri Jul 29, 2022 6:10 am
cassowary wrote:
Fri Jul 29, 2022 5:36 am
Sertorio wrote:
Fri Jul 29, 2022 12:17 am
SteveFoerster wrote:
Thu Jul 28, 2022 4:45 pm
neverfail wrote:
Thu Jul 28, 2022 3:13 pm
As for NATO: the US has had to assume leadership of the alliance because frankly none of NATO's European member states are fit for the job.
The Germans would probably be the best at it, but even eighty years later that's apparently a bit awkward.
Leadership... Who the fuck needs it?... What we need is mutual respect, and that's something NATO cannot produce...
I think Nato countries respect one another. But somebody has got to be the leader and the rest must be willing to follow.
Well, in day-to-day operations, perhaps. But in terms of overall policy, especially for something as far-reaching as military policy, there must be consensus.
Consensus for such a large group is impossible. There will be a cacophony of voices and opinions. Also should everybody’s opinion carry the same weight. Should a tiny country with Small military have equal weight to the US and Germany?

You need a weighted voting system based on contribution to contribution to collective defence. By the way, I favor weighted voting for choosing our leaders.
The Imp :D

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SteveFoerster
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Re: Finland & Sweden about to join NATO

Post by SteveFoerster » Fri Jul 29, 2022 6:51 am

cassowary wrote:
Fri Jul 29, 2022 6:34 am
Consensus for such a large group is impossible. There will be a cacophony of voices and opinions. Also should everybody’s opinion carry the same weight. Should a tiny country with Small military have equal weight to the US and Germany?

You need a weighted voting system based on contribution to contribution to collective defence.
The difficulty in reaching consensus is not a bug, it's a feature, because it prevents a military alliance from expanding into being more than it should be.
cassowary wrote:
Fri Jul 29, 2022 6:34 am
By the way, I favor weighted voting for choosing our leaders.
Okay, I'll bite: how would you do that?
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Sertorio
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Re: Finland & Sweden about to join NATO

Post by Sertorio » Fri Jul 29, 2022 7:15 am

cassowary wrote:
Fri Jul 29, 2022 6:34 am

Consensus for such a large group is impossible. There will be a cacophony of voices and opinions. Also should everybody’s opinion carry the same weight. Should a tiny country with Small military have equal weight to the US and Germany?

You need a weighted voting system based on contribution to contribution to collective defence. By the way, I favor weighted voting for choosing our leaders.
I always thought you were not very strong on democracy...Next you will say that people should have a number of votes related to their income...Rich people should have, say, 10 votes, and poor people only one, or none... :evil:

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cassowary
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Re: Finland & Sweden about to join NATO

Post by cassowary » Fri Jul 29, 2022 9:37 am

SteveFoerster wrote:
Fri Jul 29, 2022 6:51 am
cassowary wrote:
Fri Jul 29, 2022 6:34 am
Consensus for such a large group is impossible. There will be a cacophony of voices and opinions. Also should everybody’s opinion carry the same weight. Should a tiny country with Small military have equal weight to the US and Germany?

You need a weighted voting system based on contribution to contribution to collective defence.
The difficulty in reaching consensus is not a bug, it's a feature, because it prevents a military alliance from expanding into being more than it should be.
Reacning a consensus would slow down decision making. This is impractical for an defence organisation. Military emergencies require quick and decisive action.
cassowary wrote:
Fri Jul 29, 2022 6:34 am
By the way, I favor weighted voting for choosing our leaders.
Okay, I'll bite: how would you do that?
The number of votes ou get depends on how much taxes you pay. The more you contribute, the more say you will have. Think of each voter as a shareholder. Shareholders contribute his capital into the company. The more capital he contributes, the more votes he gets at the AGM.

The one many one vote system gives too much power to the below avearage income folks. That's why the top earners pay a disproportionate amout of taxes.

The top 1% folks end up paying 40% of income taxes collected. If you contribute more taxes, you should have more say in how that money is to be spent. Otherwise they will be outvoted all the time. High income folks are usually better educated and smarter and are go getters.

So your smart, go-getters in your population gets outvoted by the stupid and lazy. That is why you end up with tax and spend policies that result in budget deficit and government debt. This is a systemic flaw in the one man one vote system.

But this proposed system would mean the high income folks will end up conttolling the country. We don't want any group to becomes too powerful or the system become unbalanced. Problems will arise just as it arose today because the lower income group has too much power.

We need to balance the two groups. Remember what Aristotle said: "In a democracy, it is the poor who are the more powerful because they are more of them. And the will of the majority is supreme.

So I propose a two chamber Congress. Senators will be chosen based on taxation based voting. The more taxes you pay, the ore votes you get. The lower House will remain with the old one many one vote system.
The Imp :D

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Milo
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Re: Finland & Sweden about to join NATO

Post by Milo » Fri Jul 29, 2022 10:26 am

cassowary wrote:
Fri Jul 29, 2022 9:37 am
SteveFoerster wrote:
Fri Jul 29, 2022 6:51 am
cassowary wrote:
Fri Jul 29, 2022 6:34 am
Consensus for such a large group is impossible. There will be a cacophony of voices and opinions. Also should everybody’s opinion carry the same weight. Should a tiny country with Small military have equal weight to the US and Germany?

You need a weighted voting system based on contribution to contribution to collective defence.
The difficulty in reaching consensus is not a bug, it's a feature, because it prevents a military alliance from expanding into being more than it should be.
Reacning a consensus would slow down decision making. This is impractical for an defence organisation. Military emergencies require quick and decisive action.
cassowary wrote:
Fri Jul 29, 2022 6:34 am
By the way, I favor weighted voting for choosing our leaders.
Okay, I'll bite: how would you do that?
The number of votes ou get depends on how much taxes you pay. The more you contribute, the more say you will have. Think of each voter as a shareholder. Shareholders contribute his capital into the company. The more capital he contributes, the more votes he gets at the AGM.

The one many one vote system gives too much power to the below avearage income folks. That's why the top earners pay a disproportionate amout of taxes.

The top 1% folks end up paying 40% of income taxes collected. If you contribute more taxes, you should have more say in how that money is to be spent. Otherwise they will be outvoted all the time. High income folks are usually better educated and smarter and are go getters.

So your smart, go-getters in your population gets outvoted by the stupid and lazy. That is why you end up with tax and spend policies that result in budget deficit and government debt. This is a systemic flaw in the one man one vote system.

But this proposed system would mean the high income folks will end up conttolling the country. We don't want any group to becomes too powerful or the system become unbalanced. Problems will arise just as it arose today because the lower income group has too much power.

We need to balance the two groups. Remember what Aristotle said: "In a democracy, it is the poor who are the more powerful because they are more of them. And the will of the majority is supreme.

So I propose a two chamber Congress. Senators will be chosen based on taxation based voting. The more taxes you pay, the ore votes you get. The lower House will remain with the old one many one vote system.
There is no proof that the rich don’t want to tax and spend and democracies tend to win wars.

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neverfail
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Re: Finland & Sweden about to join NATO

Post by neverfail » Fri Jul 29, 2022 4:01 pm

Sertorio wrote:
Fri Jul 29, 2022 12:17 am
Leadership... Who the fuck needs it?... What we need is mutual respect, and that's something NATO cannot produce...
Are you an anarchist Sertorio?

Mutual respect? Respect is not something that is normally forthcoming as an unsolicited gift but usually needs to be earned on the basis of merit.

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