Finland & Sweden about to join NATO

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Milo
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Re: Finland & Sweden about to join NATO

Post by Milo » Wed Jul 27, 2022 8:56 am

Sertorio wrote:
Wed Jul 27, 2022 8:48 am
Milo wrote:
Wed Jul 27, 2022 8:45 am
Sertorio wrote:
Wed Jul 27, 2022 8:18 am
Turkey demands that NATO-hopeful delivers on terrorist commitments
https://www.rt.com/news/559719-turkey-s ... mmitments/

Sweden has still not extradited individuals accused of terrorism-related crimes by Turkey despite pledging to do so last month in an agreement that saw Ankara lift its veto of Stockholm’s NATO membership application, Foreign Minister Mevlut Cavusoglu said on Wednesday.

“The people we requested to be extradited have not been sent to Turkey yet,” Cavusoglu said in an interview with Turkey’s TV100 network, adding that both Sweden and Finland, another NATO hopeful that was party to the deal, must fulfill their commitments.

Spurred by Russia’s offensive in Ukraine, both Finland and Sweden decided to join NATO after decades of neutrality, officially applying for membership of the alliance back in May. However, for a candidate nation to be accepted into the military alliance, the unanimous consent of all current members is needed.

Turkey initially objected to the two countries’ bids and set out several conditions they would have to meet for Ankara to change its mind. Last month in Madrid, the three parties signed a memorandum in which Sweden and Finland pledged to end their embargo on arms sales to Turkey and crack down on individuals and Kurdish groups that Ankara has branded terrorists. Among them are Kurdistan Workers’ Party (PKK) activists who sought asylum in Sweden and Finland, and followers of the exiled cleric Fetullah Gulen.

“So, while we appreciate the statements made by the Swedish government and the country’s foreign ministry, we will need to see them actually fulfilling the obligations under the memorandum,” the official said.

Cavusoglu’s words followed a stern warning by Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan who said last week that Ankara may still veto Finland and Sweden’s NATO membership bids if they fail to live up to their obligations under the deal.

Later in the week, Turkey’s Foreign Ministry reportedly summoned Sweden’s top diplomat in the country to express the government’s “strong reaction” to a protest organized by a Kurdish group in Gothenburg.
I have a feeling that it may still be a long time before Sweden and Finland are allowed to join NATO...
Of course it will be a long time, extradition hearings take a long time, joining NATO takes a long time.

Perhaps this takes your mind off that countries who were neutral for decades have now firmly planted their feet in the NATO camp because they cannot trust Russia’s intentions?
I have another feeling: once Russia wins the present war, and seeing that NATO was powerless to stop Russia, NATO may soon fall apart. After all, what do you need an alliance for if it is militarily powerless?...
People have said NATO was useless and going to fall apart for over 70 years, feel free to hold your breath.

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Sertorio
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Re: Finland & Sweden about to join NATO

Post by Sertorio » Wed Jul 27, 2022 9:15 am

Milo wrote:
Wed Jul 27, 2022 8:56 am
Sertorio wrote:
Wed Jul 27, 2022 8:48 am
Milo wrote:
Wed Jul 27, 2022 8:45 am
Sertorio wrote:
Wed Jul 27, 2022 8:18 am
Turkey demands that NATO-hopeful delivers on terrorist commitments
https://www.rt.com/news/559719-turkey-s ... mmitments/

Sweden has still not extradited individuals accused of terrorism-related crimes by Turkey despite pledging to do so last month in an agreement that saw Ankara lift its veto of Stockholm’s NATO membership application, Foreign Minister Mevlut Cavusoglu said on Wednesday.

“The people we requested to be extradited have not been sent to Turkey yet,” Cavusoglu said in an interview with Turkey’s TV100 network, adding that both Sweden and Finland, another NATO hopeful that was party to the deal, must fulfill their commitments.

Spurred by Russia’s offensive in Ukraine, both Finland and Sweden decided to join NATO after decades of neutrality, officially applying for membership of the alliance back in May. However, for a candidate nation to be accepted into the military alliance, the unanimous consent of all current members is needed.

Turkey initially objected to the two countries’ bids and set out several conditions they would have to meet for Ankara to change its mind. Last month in Madrid, the three parties signed a memorandum in which Sweden and Finland pledged to end their embargo on arms sales to Turkey and crack down on individuals and Kurdish groups that Ankara has branded terrorists. Among them are Kurdistan Workers’ Party (PKK) activists who sought asylum in Sweden and Finland, and followers of the exiled cleric Fetullah Gulen.

“So, while we appreciate the statements made by the Swedish government and the country’s foreign ministry, we will need to see them actually fulfilling the obligations under the memorandum,” the official said.

Cavusoglu’s words followed a stern warning by Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan who said last week that Ankara may still veto Finland and Sweden’s NATO membership bids if they fail to live up to their obligations under the deal.

Later in the week, Turkey’s Foreign Ministry reportedly summoned Sweden’s top diplomat in the country to express the government’s “strong reaction” to a protest organized by a Kurdish group in Gothenburg.
I have a feeling that it may still be a long time before Sweden and Finland are allowed to join NATO...
Of course it will be a long time, extradition hearings take a long time, joining NATO takes a long time.

Perhaps this takes your mind off that countries who were neutral for decades have now firmly planted their feet in the NATO camp because they cannot trust Russia’s intentions?
I have another feeling: once Russia wins the present war, and seeing that NATO was powerless to stop Russia, NATO may soon fall apart. After all, what do you need an alliance for if it is militarily powerless?...
People have said NATO was useless and going to fall apart for over 70 years, feel free to hold your breath.
It hasn't fallen apart only because the US needs it to keep Europe under control. You only have to see how the US has reacted every time the EU talks about creating an European army, to realize that NATO is simply an American tool.

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Milo
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Re: Finland & Sweden about to join NATO

Post by Milo » Wed Jul 27, 2022 11:32 am

Sertorio wrote:
Wed Jul 27, 2022 9:15 am
Milo wrote:
Wed Jul 27, 2022 8:56 am
Sertorio wrote:
Wed Jul 27, 2022 8:48 am
Milo wrote:
Wed Jul 27, 2022 8:45 am
Sertorio wrote:
Wed Jul 27, 2022 8:18 am
Turkey demands that NATO-hopeful delivers on terrorist commitments
https://www.rt.com/news/559719-turkey-s ... mmitments/

Sweden has still not extradited individuals accused of terrorism-related crimes by Turkey despite pledging to do so last month in an agreement that saw Ankara lift its veto of Stockholm’s NATO membership application, Foreign Minister Mevlut Cavusoglu said on Wednesday.

“The people we requested to be extradited have not been sent to Turkey yet,” Cavusoglu said in an interview with Turkey’s TV100 network, adding that both Sweden and Finland, another NATO hopeful that was party to the deal, must fulfill their commitments.

Spurred by Russia’s offensive in Ukraine, both Finland and Sweden decided to join NATO after decades of neutrality, officially applying for membership of the alliance back in May. However, for a candidate nation to be accepted into the military alliance, the unanimous consent of all current members is needed.

Turkey initially objected to the two countries’ bids and set out several conditions they would have to meet for Ankara to change its mind. Last month in Madrid, the three parties signed a memorandum in which Sweden and Finland pledged to end their embargo on arms sales to Turkey and crack down on individuals and Kurdish groups that Ankara has branded terrorists. Among them are Kurdistan Workers’ Party (PKK) activists who sought asylum in Sweden and Finland, and followers of the exiled cleric Fetullah Gulen.

“So, while we appreciate the statements made by the Swedish government and the country’s foreign ministry, we will need to see them actually fulfilling the obligations under the memorandum,” the official said.

Cavusoglu’s words followed a stern warning by Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan who said last week that Ankara may still veto Finland and Sweden’s NATO membership bids if they fail to live up to their obligations under the deal.

Later in the week, Turkey’s Foreign Ministry reportedly summoned Sweden’s top diplomat in the country to express the government’s “strong reaction” to a protest organized by a Kurdish group in Gothenburg.
I have a feeling that it may still be a long time before Sweden and Finland are allowed to join NATO...
Of course it will be a long time, extradition hearings take a long time, joining NATO takes a long time.

Perhaps this takes your mind off that countries who were neutral for decades have now firmly planted their feet in the NATO camp because they cannot trust Russia’s intentions?
I have another feeling: once Russia wins the present war, and seeing that NATO was powerless to stop Russia, NATO may soon fall apart. After all, what do you need an alliance for if it is militarily powerless?...
People have said NATO was useless and going to fall apart for over 70 years, feel free to hold your breath.
It hasn't fallen apart only because the US needs it to keep Europe under control. You only have to see how the US has reacted every time the EU talks about creating an European army, to realize that NATO is simply an American tool.
Really? How have they reacted?

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Sertorio
Posts: 8298
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Re: Finland & Sweden about to join NATO

Post by Sertorio » Wed Jul 27, 2022 11:43 am

Milo wrote:
Wed Jul 27, 2022 11:32 am
Sertorio wrote:
Wed Jul 27, 2022 9:15 am
Milo wrote:
Wed Jul 27, 2022 8:56 am
Sertorio wrote:
Wed Jul 27, 2022 8:48 am
Milo wrote:
Wed Jul 27, 2022 8:45 am
Sertorio wrote:
Wed Jul 27, 2022 8:18 am


I have a feeling that it may still be a long time before Sweden and Finland are allowed to join NATO...
Of course it will be a long time, extradition hearings take a long time, joining NATO takes a long time.

Perhaps this takes your mind off that countries who were neutral for decades have now firmly planted their feet in the NATO camp because they cannot trust Russia’s intentions?
I have another feeling: once Russia wins the present war, and seeing that NATO was powerless to stop Russia, NATO may soon fall apart. After all, what do you need an alliance for if it is militarily powerless?...
People have said NATO was useless and going to fall apart for over 70 years, feel free to hold your breath.
It hasn't fallen apart only because the US needs it to keep Europe under control. You only have to see how the US has reacted every time the EU talks about creating an European army, to realize that NATO is simply an American tool.
Really? How have they reacted?
Strongly opposed it.
https://www.americanprogress.org/articl ... u-defense/

The level of Europe’s defense spending and the size of its collective forces in uniform should make it a global power with one of the strongest militaries in the world. But Europe does not act as one on defense, even though it formed a political union almost 30 years ago. Europe’s military strength today is far weaker than the sum of its parts. This is not just a European failure; it is also fundamentally a failure of America’s post-Cold War strategy toward Europe—a strategy that remains virtually unchanged since the 1990s.

Europe’s dependence on the United States for its security means that the United States possesses a de facto veto on the direction of European defense. Since the 1990s, the United States has typically used its effective veto power to block the defense ambitions of the European Union.

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Milo
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Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2016 10:14 pm

Re: Finland & Sweden about to join NATO

Post by Milo » Wed Jul 27, 2022 1:16 pm

Sertorio wrote:
Wed Jul 27, 2022 11:43 am
Milo wrote:
Wed Jul 27, 2022 11:32 am
Sertorio wrote:
Wed Jul 27, 2022 9:15 am
Milo wrote:
Wed Jul 27, 2022 8:56 am
Sertorio wrote:
Wed Jul 27, 2022 8:48 am
Milo wrote:
Wed Jul 27, 2022 8:45 am


Of course it will be a long time, extradition hearings take a long time, joining NATO takes a long time.

Perhaps this takes your mind off that countries who were neutral for decades have now firmly planted their feet in the NATO camp because they cannot trust Russia’s intentions?
I have another feeling: once Russia wins the present war, and seeing that NATO was powerless to stop Russia, NATO may soon fall apart. After all, what do you need an alliance for if it is militarily powerless?...
People have said NATO was useless and going to fall apart for over 70 years, feel free to hold your breath.
It hasn't fallen apart only because the US needs it to keep Europe under control. You only have to see how the US has reacted every time the EU talks about creating an European army, to realize that NATO is simply an American tool.
Really? How have they reacted?
Strongly opposed it.
https://www.americanprogress.org/articl ... u-defense/

The level of Europe’s defense spending and the size of its collective forces in uniform should make it a global power with one of the strongest militaries in the world. But Europe does not act as one on defense, even though it formed a political union almost 30 years ago. Europe’s military strength today is far weaker than the sum of its parts. This is not just a European failure; it is also fundamentally a failure of America’s post-Cold War strategy toward Europe—a strategy that remains virtually unchanged since the 1990s.

Europe’s dependence on the United States for its security means that the United States possesses a de facto veto on the direction of European defense. Since the 1990s, the United States has typically used its effective veto power to block the defense ambitions of the European Union.
By voicing a perfectly rational opinion. What’s wrong with that?

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Sertorio
Posts: 8298
Joined: Fri Dec 16, 2016 3:12 am

Re: Finland & Sweden about to join NATO

Post by Sertorio » Wed Jul 27, 2022 2:25 pm

Milo wrote:
Wed Jul 27, 2022 1:16 pm
Sertorio wrote:
Wed Jul 27, 2022 11:43 am
Milo wrote:
Wed Jul 27, 2022 11:32 am
Sertorio wrote:
Wed Jul 27, 2022 9:15 am
Milo wrote:
Wed Jul 27, 2022 8:56 am
Sertorio wrote:
Wed Jul 27, 2022 8:48 am


I have another feeling: once Russia wins the present war, and seeing that NATO was powerless to stop Russia, NATO may soon fall apart. After all, what do you need an alliance for if it is militarily powerless?...
People have said NATO was useless and going to fall apart for over 70 years, feel free to hold your breath.
It hasn't fallen apart only because the US needs it to keep Europe under control. You only have to see how the US has reacted every time the EU talks about creating an European army, to realize that NATO is simply an American tool.
Really? How have they reacted?
Strongly opposed it.
https://www.americanprogress.org/articl ... u-defense/

The level of Europe’s defense spending and the size of its collective forces in uniform should make it a global power with one of the strongest militaries in the world. But Europe does not act as one on defense, even though it formed a political union almost 30 years ago. Europe’s military strength today is far weaker than the sum of its parts. This is not just a European failure; it is also fundamentally a failure of America’s post-Cold War strategy toward Europe—a strategy that remains virtually unchanged since the 1990s.

Europe’s dependence on the United States for its security means that the United States possesses a de facto veto on the direction of European defense. Since the 1990s, the United States has typically used its effective veto power to block the defense ambitions of the European Union.
By voicing a perfectly rational opinion. What’s wrong with that?
A perfectly rational opinion...

Since the 1990s, the United States has typically used its effective veto power to block the defense ambitions of the European Union.

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SteveFoerster
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Re: Finland & Sweden about to join NATO

Post by SteveFoerster » Wed Jul 27, 2022 3:28 pm

That doesn't make sense. Veto how? If Portuguese policymakers say "We're going to expand our military capabilities and coordinate more closely with other EU countries," what are US policymakers going to do? Stop paying Lisbon to use the Azores as a giant aircraft carrier? Hardly.
Writer, technologist, educator, gadfly.
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Milo
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Re: Finland & Sweden about to join NATO

Post by Milo » Wed Jul 27, 2022 4:19 pm

SteveFoerster wrote:
Wed Jul 27, 2022 3:28 pm
That doesn't make sense. Veto how? If Portuguese policymakers say "We're going to expand our military capabilities and coordinate more closely with other EU countries," what are US policymakers going to do? Stop paying Lisbon to use the Azores as a giant aircraft carrier? Hardly.
France left NATO and then came back, I don’t seem to remember the US invading them or something.

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cassowary
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Re: Finland & Sweden about to join NATO

Post by cassowary » Wed Jul 27, 2022 8:01 pm

Sertorio wrote:
Wed Jul 27, 2022 9:15 am
Milo wrote:
Wed Jul 27, 2022 8:56 am
Sertorio wrote:
Wed Jul 27, 2022 8:48 am
Milo wrote:
Wed Jul 27, 2022 8:45 am
Sertorio wrote:
Wed Jul 27, 2022 8:18 am
Turkey demands that NATO-hopeful delivers on terrorist commitments
https://www.rt.com/news/559719-turkey-s ... mmitments/

Sweden has still not extradited individuals accused of terrorism-related crimes by Turkey despite pledging to do so last month in an agreement that saw Ankara lift its veto of Stockholm’s NATO membership application, Foreign Minister Mevlut Cavusoglu said on Wednesday.

“The people we requested to be extradited have not been sent to Turkey yet,” Cavusoglu said in an interview with Turkey’s TV100 network, adding that both Sweden and Finland, another NATO hopeful that was party to the deal, must fulfill their commitments.

Spurred by Russia’s offensive in Ukraine, both Finland and Sweden decided to join NATO after decades of neutrality, officially applying for membership of the alliance back in May. However, for a candidate nation to be accepted into the military alliance, the unanimous consent of all current members is needed.

Turkey initially objected to the two countries’ bids and set out several conditions they would have to meet for Ankara to change its mind. Last month in Madrid, the three parties signed a memorandum in which Sweden and Finland pledged to end their embargo on arms sales to Turkey and crack down on individuals and Kurdish groups that Ankara has branded terrorists. Among them are Kurdistan Workers’ Party (PKK) activists who sought asylum in Sweden and Finland, and followers of the exiled cleric Fetullah Gulen.

“So, while we appreciate the statements made by the Swedish government and the country’s foreign ministry, we will need to see them actually fulfilling the obligations under the memorandum,” the official said.

Cavusoglu’s words followed a stern warning by Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan who said last week that Ankara may still veto Finland and Sweden’s NATO membership bids if they fail to live up to their obligations under the deal.

Later in the week, Turkey’s Foreign Ministry reportedly summoned Sweden’s top diplomat in the country to express the government’s “strong reaction” to a protest organized by a Kurdish group in Gothenburg.
I have a feeling that it may still be a long time before Sweden and Finland are allowed to join NATO...
Of course it will be a long time, extradition hearings take a long time, joining NATO takes a long time.

Perhaps this takes your mind off that countries who were neutral for decades have now firmly planted their feet in the NATO camp because they cannot trust Russia’s intentions?
I have another feeling: once Russia wins the present war, and seeing that NATO was powerless to stop Russia, NATO may soon fall apart. After all, what do you need an alliance for if it is militarily powerless?...
People have said NATO was useless and going to fall apart for over 70 years, feel free to hold your breath.
It hasn't fallen apart only because the US needs it to keep Europe under control. You only have to see how the US has reacted every time the EU talks about creating an European army, to realize that NATO is simply an American tool.
I think NATO is simply an European tool to get defence on the cheap and paid for by the American taxpayer.
The Imp :D

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neverfail
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Re: Finland & Sweden about to join NATO

Post by neverfail » Thu Jul 28, 2022 3:13 pm

Milo wrote:
Wed Jul 27, 2022 4:19 pm
SteveFoerster wrote:
Wed Jul 27, 2022 3:28 pm
France left NATO and then came back, I don’t seem to remember the US invading them or something.
They led a joint allied invasion in June 1944 but that was to drive out the Nazi German occupation, so that does not count.

As for NATO: the US has had to assume leadership of the alliance because frankly none of NATO's European member states are fit for the job.

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