The Cost of Trying to Remain a Hegemon

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SteveFoerster
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Re: The Cost of Trying to Remain a Hegemon

Post by SteveFoerster » Tue Jun 21, 2022 8:46 am

Sertorio wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 12:53 am
SteveFoerster wrote:
Sun Jun 19, 2022 9:25 pm
neverfail wrote:
Sun Jun 19, 2022 3:34 pm
Steve Foerster:

I would like to read your assessment of this:

Did the USA achieve its position of hegemony out of ambition or did it have this role pushed on to it by default; because no other friendly power in the sphere of Western civilisation was fit to carry the burden of leadership?
There's certainly never been a lack of ambition amongst US policymakers. Consider that the US went from settlements hugging the Atlantic coast at independence to stretching all the way across the continent within a single lifetime. But after the second world war there really was no other major power that had intact industrial and financial systems, so in that sense it's also true that there was no one else. And that's a position that US policymakers have since jealously guarded, to a fault.
That's what some people call imperialistic arrogance. Thank you for recognizing it.
I know your selective amnesia won't let you remember it this time either, but as I've said repeatedly, I have deep criticisms of the U.S. government that are not all that different from yours.
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Milo
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Re: The Cost of Trying to Remain a Hegemon

Post by Milo » Tue Jun 21, 2022 9:38 am

SteveFoerster wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 8:46 am
Sertorio wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 12:53 am
SteveFoerster wrote:
Sun Jun 19, 2022 9:25 pm
neverfail wrote:
Sun Jun 19, 2022 3:34 pm
Steve Foerster:

I would like to read your assessment of this:

Did the USA achieve its position of hegemony out of ambition or did it have this role pushed on to it by default; because no other friendly power in the sphere of Western civilisation was fit to carry the burden of leadership?
There's certainly never been a lack of ambition amongst US policymakers. Consider that the US went from settlements hugging the Atlantic coast at independence to stretching all the way across the continent within a single lifetime. But after the second world war there really was no other major power that had intact industrial and financial systems, so in that sense it's also true that there was no one else. And that's a position that US policymakers have since jealously guarded, to a fault.
That's what some people call imperialistic arrogance. Thank you for recognizing it.
I know your selective amnesia won't let you remember it this time either, but as I've said repeatedly, I have deep criticisms of the U.S. government that are not all that different from yours.
The Kremlin apologists gave up on making their side look good long ago, this requires them to make their chosen adversaries look terrible, true or not.

Of course, they busted-clock their way into the truth at times: Vietnam etc.

But the perfidy of Russia in other countries was not about helping democracy and rule of law. They merely got rid of those they didn’t like, without any regard for process. The US at least created a credible fig leaf for what they did and often it was genuine.

Russia has killed and wrecked far more than any other great power in history, except maybe China. And the legacy of it speaks for itself.

The worst results by America are equal to the best of Russia.

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Re: The Cost of Trying to Remain a Hegemon

Post by SteveFoerster » Tue Jun 21, 2022 10:11 am

Milo wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 9:38 am
The worst results by America are equal to the best of Russia.
Tell that to a million dead Iraqis.

Sertorio's not wrong that the US crashes around the world like a bull in a china shop. He's just wrong to use this as an excuse to praise murder and destruction committed by other regimes.
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Sertorio
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Re: The Cost of Trying to Remain a Hegemon

Post by Sertorio » Tue Jun 21, 2022 10:19 am

SteveFoerster wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 10:11 am
Milo wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 9:38 am
The worst results by America are equal to the best of Russia.
Tell that to a million dead Iraqis.

Sertorio's not wrong that the US crashes around the world like a bull in a china shop. He's just wrong to use this as an excuse to praise murder and destruction committed by other regimes.
Russia's policies being a lot less evil than American ones, I welcome Russia's attempts at putting an end to US hegemony. Nothing that Russia can do could be nearly as bad as what the US has been doing for decades.

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Re: The Cost of Trying to Remain a Hegemon

Post by SteveFoerster » Tue Jun 21, 2022 10:31 am

Sertorio wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 10:19 am
SteveFoerster wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 10:11 am
Milo wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 9:38 am
The worst results by America are equal to the best of Russia.
Tell that to a million dead Iraqis.

Sertorio's not wrong that the US crashes around the world like a bull in a china shop. He's just wrong to use this as an excuse to praise murder and destruction committed by other regimes.
Russia's policies being a lot less evil than American ones, I welcome Russia's attempts at putting an end to US hegemony. Nothing that Russia can do could be nearly as bad as what the US has been doing for decades.
As if on cue. Thank you for proving my point for me.
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Milo
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Re: The Cost of Trying to Remain a Hegemon

Post by Milo » Tue Jun 21, 2022 11:17 am

SteveFoerster wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 10:11 am
Milo wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 9:38 am
The worst results by America are equal to the best of Russia.
Tell that to a million dead Iraqis.

Sertorio's not wrong that the US crashes around the world like a bull in a china shop. He's just wrong to use this as an excuse to praise murder and destruction committed by other regimes.
Most of those Iraqis were going to die anyway.

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Re: The Cost of Trying to Remain a Hegemon

Post by SteveFoerster » Tue Jun 21, 2022 11:37 am

Milo wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 11:17 am
SteveFoerster wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 10:11 am
Milo wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 9:38 am
The worst results by America are equal to the best of Russia.
Tell that to a million dead Iraqis.

Sertorio's not wrong that the US crashes around the world like a bull in a china shop. He's just wrong to use this as an excuse to praise murder and destruction committed by other regimes.
Most of those Iraqis were going to die anyway.
Image
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President of New World University: https://newworld.ac

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Sertorio
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Re: The Cost of Trying to Remain a Hegemon

Post by Sertorio » Tue Jun 21, 2022 12:05 pm

Milo wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 11:17 am
SteveFoerster wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 10:11 am
Milo wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 9:38 am
The worst results by America are equal to the best of Russia.
Tell that to a million dead Iraqis.

Sertorio's not wrong that the US crashes around the world like a bull in a china shop. He's just wrong to use this as an excuse to praise murder and destruction committed by other regimes.
Most of those Iraqis were going to die anyway.
Actually we are all going to die, does that mean that someone is justified in killing us?... :shock:

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Re: The Cost of Trying to Remain a Hegemon

Post by neverfail » Tue Jun 21, 2022 4:12 pm

Sertorio wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 12:05 pm
Actually we are all going to die, does that mean that someone is justified in killing us?... :shock:
A profound thought on your part Sertorio for which I commend you (Umm, do you ever think about what comes after death?).

Even in the case of the US led invasion of Iraq, the purpose was not to kill people for the sake of killing them. The deaths were more like a sacrifice for the higher cause of ridding the world of an odious regime.

In that light I consider the many Ukrainians who have already perished in the current conflict to have been martyrs, not victims.

(But of course, you do not believe in martyrdom, do you Sertorio?)

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Re: The Cost of Trying to Remain a Hegemon

Post by SteveFoerster » Tue Jun 21, 2022 4:37 pm

neverfail wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 4:12 pm
Sertorio wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 12:05 pm
Actually we are all going to die, does that mean that someone is justified in killing us?... :shock:
A profound thought on your part Sertorio for which I commend you (Umm, do you ever think about what comes after death?).

Even in the case of the US led invasion of Iraq, the purpose was not to kill people for the sake of killing them. The deaths were more like a sacrifice for the higher cause of ridding the world of an odious regime.
When you "sacrifice" people in some other country so as to change its regime, the term for that is "war crime".
neverfail wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 4:12 pm
In that light I consider the many Ukrainians who have already perished in the current conflict to have been martyrs, not victims.

(But of course, you do not believe in martyrdom, do you Sertorio?)
To me that's an unnecessary formulation. This situation is simple: it's a war for conquest that is being steadfastly resisted by those who are being invaded. You don't have to be an atheist not to want to add layers of meaning onto this that do not belong there.
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