Is the West, Particularly Europe, About to Crumble?

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neverfail
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Re: Is the West, Particularly Europe, About to Crumble?

Post by neverfail » Sun Jun 19, 2022 10:38 pm

SteveFoerster wrote:
Sun Jun 19, 2022 9:13 pm
neverfail wrote:
Sun Jun 19, 2022 3:25 pm
You know SF, Sertorio's hopes and expectations as published on this website (Europe will collapse; the Western alliance will collapse) reminds me so much of Karl Marx in his sunset years. He then lived in the hope and expectation that he would live long enough to witness the proletarian revolution he foresaw as both inevitable and desirable.

This armchair theorist could not step outside his self-constructed theoretical box to comprehend that the transformative changes that he was witnessing in his day may not have been the historical will-of-a-wisp he imagined them to be but, like the Neolithic agrarian revolution that began around 10,000 years ago, was destined to change mankind in ways that were bound to be fixed and permanent.

Sertorio, it seems your brain has soaked up too much Marx-thought. You should think of expunging it for the sake of restoring clarity of thought.
He's a geriatric academic Marxist. You can't teach that dog new tricks.
Thanks Steve.

Might I add something more?

Revolutionary upheavals have a way of spiralling wildly out of control. With the benefit of hindsight I notice that Marx never once seemed to even hint that had the proletarian revolution he visualised happened while he was still alive, that the upheaval might bring about his own premature death.

His sense of being an observer outside the flow of events untouchable by them as reflected in his writings is incredible. It is as though Marx assumed that he came equipped with some kind of patent of immortality.

Which is why I have warned Sertorio to beware about what he wishes for.

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Sertorio
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Re: Is the West, Particularly Europe, About to Crumble?

Post by Sertorio » Mon Jun 20, 2022 12:41 am

SteveFoerster wrote:
Sun Jun 19, 2022 9:13 pm
neverfail wrote:
Sun Jun 19, 2022 3:25 pm
You know SF, Sertorio's hopes and expectations as published on this website (Europe will collapse; the Western alliance will collapse) reminds me so much of Karl Marx in his sunset years. He then lived in the hope and expectation that he would live long enough to witness the proletarian revolution he foresaw as both inevitable and desirable.

This armchair theorist could not step outside his self-constructed theoretical box to comprehend that the transformative changes that he was witnessing in his day may not have been the historical will-of-a-wisp he imagined them to be but, like the Neolithic agrarian revolution that began around 10,000 years ago, was destined to change mankind in ways that were bound to be fixed and permanent.

Sertorio, it seems your brain has soaked up too much Marx-thought. You should think of expunging it for the sake of restoring clarity of thought.
He's a geriatric academic Marxist. You can't teach that dog new tricks.
I assure you my brain is in perfect working order, and that I can outthink you any day of the year. Which this forum has proven over and over again. You, contrarily to me, are not able of objective assessment of Russia, the US, the situation in Europe or the causes of the war in the Ukraine. You keep dividing humanity in the good and the bad guys, you are unable to put yourself in the other guy's shoes, you replace thinking with moralizing, based on your own faulty set of values. It's people like you who make the US such an enormous threat to the rest of the world, because you join ignorance and arrogance, and keep passing judgement on everybody else. But that's about to finish...

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Sertorio
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Re: Is the West, Particularly Europe, About to Crumble?

Post by Sertorio » Mon Jun 20, 2022 12:49 am

neverfail wrote:
Sun Jun 19, 2022 4:41 pm
Sertorio wrote:
Sun Jun 19, 2022 3:55 pm

No need to. Europeans countries will collapse on their own...
....and then Putin's Russia marches in to pick up the pieces. Oh, what a glorious future you visualise for the European sub-continent.
No. I see Russia being available to pick up cooperation with Europe for the benefit of both parties
Oh sure! Having become dominant in Europe due to US default Putin's Russia is going to be "cooperative" out of a sunny altruism? Well, power politics, especially Eurasian power politics, has never worked like that. Russian society suffers lower living standards than those prevailing across Europe so you can count on it that Russia, in the absence of Any American challenge to curb its exploitation, will demand payment of tribute in some form or other - as the Soviet Union did with its eastern European satellite states. Or are you ignorant of the fact that the USSR treated those who were under its thumb like that as you are selectively blind of so much else?
. Once Europe frees itself from the American oppression.
What American oppression? The USA did not even have to open up its domestic market to competition from European and Japanese manufactured consumer goods in the decades after the Second World war yet it still did. Out of self-interest? Yes, but it was ENLIGHTENED self-interest: unlike the unenlightened beggar-thy-neighbour habit of pre-World Wars European states of keeping their domestic markets closed to each other's products rendering all poorer as a consequence. You can thank the American "oppressor" (i.e. patron) for the fact that Europe is even half as prosperous as it is now. You Europeans could not have possibly rebuilt your continent all by yourselves from the destruction of the Second World War (though down in the backwater of Portugal this might not have been obvious).

Do you really believe that Russia with its impoverished domestic markets can possibly offer you Europeans the means to sustain your current accepted standard of living? :lol: All fool you if you do.
Contrarily to the US, Russia is a reliable partner, provided nobody tries to screw it...
...as Putin's Russia is currently striving to screw Ukraine, you mean?

Reliable? Zelinsky could not even rely of Russia to respect his country's international frontiers and keep his troops out.
In typical Anglo fashion you are unable to understand Russia and Europe. You keep seeing Russia as the Soviet Union with a different flag, and fail to see that while the latter had a religious fervour based on Communism, Russia has values but no ideology. It does not wish to impose anything on anyone, but gives top priority to its own security. Russia can cooperate with Europe because it has no designs on Europe. The days of Empire are over for Russia, contrarily to the US which only sees security in dominance over everybody else. Ukraine is not a victim of Russia, it is a victim of US imperialism and of Zelensky's stupidity. You refuse to see that because you are obsessed with the need to keep Anglo superiority and dominance.

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Re: Is the West, Particularly Europe, About to Crumble?

Post by neverfail » Mon Jun 20, 2022 4:48 pm

Sertorio wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 12:49 am
In typical Anglo fashion you are unable to understand Russia and Europe.
..and you do?
You keep seeing Russia as the Soviet Union with a different flag,...
There is an obvious continuum connecting them just as in the case of the USSR viz the Czarist Empire that preceeded it.
.....and fail to see that while the latter had a religious fervour based on Communism,...
During its inaugural phase yes; but it shed that fervour as it evolved into a more conventional imperial power.
Russia has values but no ideology.
That Russian society might have some shared values is overruled by its ruler, Putin, being absolutely devoid of a conscience.
It does not wish to impose anything on anyone, but gives top priority to its own security.


Then what are Russian troops doing inside Ukraine?
Russia can cooperate with Europe because it has no designs on Europe.
Putin has shown gross contempt for the sovereignty of Ukraine so from that precedent how can a single one of Russia's near neighbours not conclude that one day (based upon "concerns for Russia's own security" - Putin's stock excuse?) Putin might turn his forces on them in like manner?
...it is a victim of US imperialism and of Zelensky's stupidity. You refuse to see that because you are obsessed with the need to keep Anglo superiority and dominance.
False accusation. We (Anglo's) like everyone else want to live in a peaceful, orderly world but Putin has stepped Russia out of line.

As for Zelensky: I have been keeping my eye on Ukraine's progress for years, as you yourself probably have. What strikes me is how a whole succession of Ukrainian political leaders have pursued closer ties with The West while NEGLECTING the need to balance that with forming a working relationship with Russia sufficiently satisfactory to reassure the latter. I cannot blame Ukraine for wanting the former (Ukrainian majority public opinion supports it, so their public officials have to take that into account in foreign policy) but neglecting the latter would imply a sort of contempt for Russian power that I could imagine Putin as finding offensive. Affronted Russian pride! Russian political leaders would like to think that they count for something.

I will further concede that spurred on by the ignorance and arrogance of US policymakers; US policy towards the region has been unwise. But that, Sertorio, has been merely a sin of omission (they knew not what they doeth) in contrast to Putin's invasion of Ukraine - a sin of commission; calculated and malign.

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Re: Is the West, Particularly Europe, About to Crumble?

Post by Sertorio » Tue Jun 21, 2022 12:24 am

Neverfail,

Compared with US policies since WWII, Putin is a lamb. His only sin is being a stumbling block to US imperialism. What the US wanted in Russia was a Yeltsin, who was ready to sell Russia down the drain to satisfy US ambitions. It's interesting that when Putin took power, the US thought that he was "a sober Yeltsin", and thus willing to further US greed. It must have been a real shock to realize that Putin was a patriot who put Russia's interests first and who refused to let the US take over Russia's economy. Putin's crime is preventing the US remaining the Lord of the Planet. By acting against the Ukraine Putin made clear that the end of the line had been reached, and that no longer the US would be allowed to impose its will on the rest of us. It's a pity that it had to be done in a military fashion, but force is the only argument the US understands. As China will also soon find out...

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