Ukraine's Victory in Azovstal

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neverfail
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Re: Ukraine's Victory in Azovstal

Post by neverfail » Wed May 18, 2022 5:45 pm

Sertorio wrote:
Wed May 18, 2022 4:53 pm
neverfail wrote:
Wed May 18, 2022 4:27 pm
The Azov battalion, surrounded by Russian forces, cut off from all external help and daily pounded relentlessly by Russian shelling still managed to hold out for over two months. Whatever the strategic gain Putin might have made from the capture of Mariupol the moral victory surely lies with Ukraine and the Azov regiment of fighters.
Don't be naive. The bunkers under the Azovstal were so strong that it would have cost the Russian army many casualties to invade them. Starving the Ukrainians out was the right strategy. And while underground those 2,000 Ukrainians couldn't do any fighting, they just tried to survive. And now they were forced to surrender, they are POW's and some of them will be tried as war criminals. Quite a moral victory, indeed...
Well, The Azovstal bunker might as you say have been strong but the Azov militia did not need to hang around to defend it - considering that they would have had the option of withdrawing from the district to relative safety, along with other Ukrainian forces.

In any case their stand apparently tied up enough manpower and other Russian resources to weaken Russian military aggression elsewhere - buying Ukraine time to further gather its strength. The consequences likely included the Russian withdrawal of forces from around Kyiv and the recent successful Ukrainian pushback in the vicinity of Kharkov.

As for "trials for war crimes": are these likely be anything other than a tit-for-tat, kangaroo court show trial act of revenge for the fact that at least one captured Russian soldier has been tried (and pleaded "guilty") of war crimes before a Ukrainian court; with likely more to come?

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Doc
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Re: Ukraine's Victory in Azovstal

Post by Doc » Wed May 18, 2022 8:21 pm

neverfail wrote:
Wed May 18, 2022 4:27 pm
The Azov battalion, surrounded by Russian forces, cut off from all external help and daily pounded relentlessly by Russian shelling still managed to hold out for over two months. Whatever the strategic gain Putin might have made from the capture of Mariupol the moral victory surely lies with Ukraine and the Azov regiment of fighters.
Actually only part of the Battalion surrendered. The commanders and as many as 1000 troops are still there. Those remaining of course having more food to go around.
“"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros

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neverfail
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Re: Ukraine's Victory in Azovstal

Post by neverfail » Wed May 18, 2022 9:52 pm

Doc wrote:
Wed May 18, 2022 8:21 pm
neverfail wrote:
Wed May 18, 2022 4:27 pm
The Azov battalion, surrounded by Russian forces, cut off from all external help and daily pounded relentlessly by Russian shelling still managed to hold out for over two months. Whatever the strategic gain Putin might have made from the capture of Mariupol the moral victory surely lies with Ukraine and the Azov regiment of fighters.
Actually only part of the Battalion surrendered. The commanders and as many as 1000 troops are still there. Those remaining of course having more food to go around.
I did a quick Google search on this Doc and could find nothing other than an unconfirmed rumor to suggest that there were any Ukrainian troops still holding out at Azovstal, Mariupol.

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Re: Ukraine's Victory in Azovstal

Post by Doc » Wed May 18, 2022 11:35 pm

neverfail wrote:
Wed May 18, 2022 8:21 pm
neverfail wrote:
Wed May 18, 2022 4:27 pm
The Azov battalion, surrounded by Russian forces, cut off from all external help and daily pounded relentlessly by Russian shelling still managed to hold out for over two months. Whatever the strategic gain Putin might have made from the capture of Mariupol the moral victory surely lies with Ukraine and the Azov regiment of fighters.
Actually only part of the Battalion surrendered. The commanders and as many as 1000 troops are still there. Those remaining of course having more food to go around.
I did a quick Google search on this Doc and could find nothing other than an unconfirmed rumor to suggest that there were any Ukrainian troops still holding out at Azovstal, Mariupol.
[/quote]

Apparently they dis-obeyed their orders to surrender from their higher ups. Which may mean they have given up their rights under the Geneva convention. Which I would assume means they really intend to fight to the last man, as the Russians would almost certainly torture and execute any that survived. Because that is what the Russian army does.
“"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros

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Sertorio
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Re: Ukraine's Victory in Azovstal

Post by Sertorio » Thu May 19, 2022 12:51 am

neverfail wrote:
Wed May 18, 2022 5:45 pm
Sertorio wrote:
Wed May 18, 2022 4:53 pm
neverfail wrote:
Wed May 18, 2022 4:27 pm
The Azov battalion, surrounded by Russian forces, cut off from all external help and daily pounded relentlessly by Russian shelling still managed to hold out for over two months. Whatever the strategic gain Putin might have made from the capture of Mariupol the moral victory surely lies with Ukraine and the Azov regiment of fighters.
Don't be naive. The bunkers under the Azovstal were so strong that it would have cost the Russian army many casualties to invade them. Starving the Ukrainians out was the right strategy. And while underground those 2,000 Ukrainians couldn't do any fighting, they just tried to survive. And now they were forced to surrender, they are POW's and some of them will be tried as war criminals. Quite a moral victory, indeed...
Well, The Azovstal bunker might as you say have been strong but the Azov militia did not need to hang around to defend it - considering that they would have had the option of withdrawing from the district to relative safety, along with other Ukrainian forces.

In any case their stand apparently tied up enough manpower and other Russian resources to weaken Russian military aggression elsewhere - buying Ukraine time to further gather its strength. The consequences likely included the Russian withdrawal of forces from around Kyiv and the recent successful Ukrainian pushback in the vicinity of Kharkov.

As for "trials for war crimes": are these likely be anything other than a tit-for-tat, kangaroo court show trial act of revenge for the fact that at least one captured Russian soldier has been tried (and pleaded "guilty") of war crimes before a Ukrainian court; with likely more to come?
Russians have been talking about war crimes tribunal much before the Russian soldier case. For years Ukrainian soldiers - mostly from the Azov - have been brutalizing the inhabitants of the Donbass, and they will be brought to court for their crimes. The same in respect of European and American mercenaries. As to the Russian soldier being tried, if he committed war crimes he must be punished.

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Re: Ukraine's Victory in Azovstal

Post by Sertorio » Thu May 19, 2022 2:53 am

Another 771 Ukrainian militants surrender at Azovstal plant
https://tass.com/politics/1453109

MOSCOW, May 19. /TASS/. Over 770 militants of Ukraine’s Azov nationalist battalion surrendered at the Azovstal steel plant in Mariupol in the past 24 hours, with a total of 1,730 Ukrainian forces laying down their arms, Russian Defense Ministry Spokesman Major-General Igor Konashenkov said on Thursday.

"In the past 24 hours, 771 militants of the Azov nationalist battalion holed up in the Azovstal steel works surrendered. Overall, 1,730 militants, including 80 wounded servicemen, have surrendered since May 16," the spokesman said.

All the Ukrainian servicemen who need in-patient care are receiving medical assistance at health institutions in Novoazovsk and Donetsk, the general said.

Russia’s Defense Ministry announced on May 17 that Ukrainian nationalists and forces sealed off at the Azovstal steel works in Mariupol had begun to surrender.

The battle of Mariupol lasted almost two months and ended in the victory of the Russian and Donetsk forces. On April 21, Russian President Vladimir Putin congratulated Defense Minister Sergey Shoigu on the complete liberation of Mariupol.
Another 771 brave Ukrainian soldiers have surrendered in the last 24 hours in Azovstal. It's now a total of 1,730 heroes who have been "evacuated" from Azovstal... Such Ukrainian victory was mostly due to the vast amount of equipment and weapons which the brave westerners have been supplying to Ukraine in order to save democracy... Some copies of Mein Kampf have been salvaged and will be sent to the Library of Congress, in Washington, DC, for use by US congressmen...

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Sertorio
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Re: Ukraine's Victory in Azovstal

Post by Sertorio » Fri May 20, 2022 2:50 pm

Azovstal ‘fully liberated’
https://www.rt.com/russia/555848-azovst ... -military/

File Photo: Azov unit fighters, who have surrendered at the Azovstal steel plant, walk on a road in the Russia-controlled port city of Mariupol, Donetsk People's Republic. © Sputnik/Russian Defence Ministry
The entire territory of the Azovstal factory complex in Mariupol has been liberated, the Russian Defense Ministry announced on Friday. More than 2,400 people surrounded inside for almost a month, including Ukrainian servicemen and members of the neo-Nazi Azov unit, have laid down their arms and surrendered.

“The last group of 531 militants surrendered today,” the Russian military spokesman, Major-General Igor Konashenkov, said in a statement. He added that a total of “2,439 Azov Nazis” and Ukrainian servicemen had laid down their arms since May 16, and that the entire Azovstal complex is now under control of Russian armed forces.
It's over. Now on to the Donbass...

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neverfail
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Re: Ukraine's Victory in Azovstal

Post by neverfail » Fri May 20, 2022 3:12 pm

Sertorio wrote:
Thu May 19, 2022 12:51 am
Russians have been talking about war crimes tribunal much before the Russian soldier case. For years Ukrainian soldiers - mostly from the Azov - have been brutalizing the inhabitants of the Donbass,
Well, what have Russian troops been doing to non-combatant civilian inhabitants of the ethnic Ukrainian settlements they occupied? Do you believe that Ukrainian soldiers should love them for it?

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Sertorio
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Ukraine's Victory in Severodonetsk

Post by Sertorio » Sun May 22, 2022 1:45 pm

News are starting to filter that Severodonetsk has been taken by the Russian army. We will have to wait to see whether that has indeed happened. It would be very interesting because Ukraine seems to have about 10,000 soldiers in and around Severodonetsk. Have they surrendered? Have they been taken prisoner? Have they fled the area?...

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