Should Ukraine destroy the Crimean Bridge?

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cassowary
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Re: Should Ukraine destroy the Crimean Bridge?

Post by cassowary » Wed May 18, 2022 4:24 am

Sertorio wrote:
Wed May 18, 2022 1:29 am
neverfail wrote:
Tue May 17, 2022 5:37 pm
Sertorio wrote:
Tue May 17, 2022 9:43 am
SteveFoerster wrote:
Tue May 17, 2022 7:36 am

More broadly, though, the US is there because (other than you) Europeans want them there. Russia is not there because no one (but you) wants Russian troops marching down their streets.
Europe has three times the population of Russia and is a lot richer, but while Russia is a major military power capable of facing the US, Europe needs the US military in order to defend itself... Doesn't that strike you as odd?
Not at all odd Sertorio. As occasional poster Alexis (himself technically a "European" by virtue of being a Frenchman) once put it: "there is no country called Europe." Enough said!
I agree that Europe has the money to build up its own defence. But it is unwilling to do so. They would rather spend their money on the welfare state and let the Americans pay for their defence.

Secondly, who will take the lead? Somebody has to be the leader. Germany? Not a popular choice. Somebody has to get the European to spend 2% of its GDP at least. Its not easy.
The Imp :D

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Sertorio
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Re: Should Ukraine destroy the Crimean Bridge?

Post by Sertorio » Wed May 18, 2022 4:38 am

cassowary wrote:
Wed May 18, 2022 4:24 am
Sertorio wrote:
Wed May 18, 2022 1:29 am
neverfail wrote:
Tue May 17, 2022 5:37 pm
Sertorio wrote:
Tue May 17, 2022 9:43 am
SteveFoerster wrote:
Tue May 17, 2022 7:36 am

More broadly, though, the US is there because (other than you) Europeans want them there. Russia is not there because no one (but you) wants Russian troops marching down their streets.
Europe has three times the population of Russia and is a lot richer, but while Russia is a major military power capable of facing the US, Europe needs the US military in order to defend itself... Doesn't that strike you as odd?
Not at all odd Sertorio. As occasional poster Alexis (himself technically a "European" by virtue of being a Frenchman) once put it: "there is no country called Europe." Enough said!
I agree that Europe has the money to build up its own defence. But it is unwilling to do so. They would rather spend their money on the welfare state and let the Americans pay for their defence.

Secondly, who will take the lead? Somebody has to be the leader. Germany? Not a popular choice. Somebody has to get the European to spend 2% of its GDP at least. Its not easy.
Being subject to the American diktat, sacrificing its capacity to determine its foreign policy, is a lot more expensive than paying for one's own defense. Creating a military capability within the EU and dumping NATO is the only smart thing to do. The alternative is permanent humiliation at the hands of the US.

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cassowary
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Re: Should Ukraine destroy the Crimean Bridge?

Post by cassowary » Wed May 18, 2022 8:45 am

Sertorio wrote:
Wed May 18, 2022 4:38 am
cassowary wrote:
Wed May 18, 2022 4:24 am
Sertorio wrote:
Wed May 18, 2022 1:29 am
neverfail wrote:
Tue May 17, 2022 5:37 pm
Sertorio wrote:
Tue May 17, 2022 9:43 am
SteveFoerster wrote:
Tue May 17, 2022 7:36 am

More broadly, though, the US is there because (other than you) Europeans want them there. Russia is not there because no one (but you) wants Russian troops marching down their streets.
Europe has three times the population of Russia and is a lot richer, but while Russia is a major military power capable of facing the US, Europe needs the US military in order to defend itself... Doesn't that strike you as odd?
Not at all odd Sertorio. As occasional poster Alexis (himself technically a "European" by virtue of being a Frenchman) once put it: "there is no country called Europe." Enough said!
I agree that Europe has the money to build up its own defence. But it is unwilling to do so. They would rather spend their money on the welfare state and let the Americans pay for their defence.

Secondly, who will take the lead? Somebody has to be the leader. Germany? Not a popular choice. Somebody has to get the European to spend 2% of its GDP at least. Its not easy.
Being subject to the American diktat, sacrificing its capacity to determine its foreign policy, is a lot more expensive than paying for one's own defense. Creating a military capability within the EU and dumping NATO is the only smart thing to do. The alternative is permanent humiliation at the hands of the US.
Convince the Europeans to spend at least 2% of gdp on defence,Then maybe you don’t need America. Tell Germany to build a nuclear deterrent. Convince Europeans to accept German leadership instead of American. Then America can be free of the burden of defe nding Europe and can focus on China. America will thank you. I will thank you.
The Imp :D

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neverfail
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Re: Should Ukraine destroy the Crimean Bridge?

Post by neverfail » Wed May 18, 2022 5:11 pm

cassowary wrote:
Wed May 18, 2022 8:45 am
Convince the Europeans to spend at least 2% of gdp on defence,Then maybe you don’t need America. Tell Germany to build a nuclear deterrent. Convince Europeans to accept German leadership instead of American. Then America can be free of the burden of defe nding Europe and can focus on China. America will thank you. I will thank you.
I absolutely agree with you in principle Cass - but only in principle. I can foresee practical reasons why a joint European defense policy minus the USA would not work.

It lies in European politics. Would the French gladly place then whole of their national defense forces, including their nuclear arsenal of around 300 bombs, under German command - or vice versa? What about Polish forces obeying directives by a German supreme commander? What of Italians, Spanish etc? It would likely serve to inflame old enmities.

As Alexis pointed out "there is no country called Europe."

That I suggest is the real reason why the USA has had to remain as a military presence in Europe for so long: even though superficially the end of the Cold War might have otherwise made that redundant . The USA represents a nice, ex-Europe outsider not caught up in Europe's inherited web of international enmities (masked by the window dressing of the European project) whose overall leadership is acceptable to all.

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cassowary
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Re: Should Ukraine destroy the Crimean Bridge?

Post by cassowary » Wed May 18, 2022 7:18 pm

neverfail wrote:
Wed May 18, 2022 5:11 pm
cassowary wrote:
Wed May 18, 2022 8:45 am
Convince the Europeans to spend at least 2% of gdp on defence,Then maybe you don’t need America. Tell Germany to build a nuclear deterrent. Convince Europeans to accept German leadership instead of American. Then America can be free of the burden of defe nding Europe and can focus on China. America will thank you. I will thank you.
I absolutely agree with you in principle Cass - but only in principle. I can foresee practical reasons why a joint European defense policy minus the USA would not work.

It lies in European politics. Would the French gladly place then whole of their national defense forces, including their nuclear arsenal of around 300 bombs, under German command - or vice versa? What about Polish forces obeying directives by a German supreme commander? What of Italians, Spanish etc? It would likely serve to inflame old enmities.

As Alexis pointed out "there is no country called Europe."

That I suggest is the real reason why the USA has had to remain as a military presence in Europe for so long: even though superficially the end of the Cold War might have otherwise made that redundant . The USA represents a nice, ex-Europe outsider not caught up in Europe's inherited web of international enmities (masked by the window dressing of the European project) whose overall leadership is acceptable to all.
You are absolutely correct, Neverfail. Old wounds will start bleeding again. But Sertorio does not realise this or refused to accept reality. A divided Europe cannot hope to withstand Russian aggression. Maybe that’s what Sertorio wants. Russian domination of Europe.
The Imp :D

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neverfail
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Re: Should Ukraine destroy the Crimean Bridge?

Post by neverfail » Wed May 18, 2022 10:10 pm

cassowary wrote:
Wed May 18, 2022 7:18 pm
You are absolutely correct, Neverfail. Old wounds will start bleeding again. But Sertorio does not realise this or refused to accept reality. A divided Europe cannot hope to withstand Russian aggression. Maybe that’s what Sertorio wants. Russian domination of Europe.
Thanks Cass, sad but true! Like you I only wish that the countries of Europe could gel together into a working power bloc in line with their collective potential in order to free up American resources for redeployment to the Asia-Pacific theatre. These could (it goes without saying) do with a lot more attention. But Europe being as it is that is not possible.

(There are likely plenty of Americans who also wish it were otherwise.)

Never mind Sertorio. Likely a European with bruised pride over the fact that Europe is not central to world affairs the way it was for a time in the 19th century.

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Re: Should Ukraine destroy the Crimean Bridge?

Post by cassowary » Wed May 18, 2022 11:20 pm

neverfail wrote:
Wed May 18, 2022 10:10 pm
cassowary wrote:
Wed May 18, 2022 7:18 pm
You are absolutely correct, Neverfail. Old wounds will start bleeding again. But Sertorio does not realise this or refused to accept reality. A divided Europe cannot hope to withstand Russian aggression. Maybe that’s what Sertorio wants. Russian domination of Europe.
Thanks Cass, sad but true! Like you I only wish that the countries of Europe could gel together into a working power bloc in line with their collective potential in order to free up American resources for redeployment to the Asia-Pacific theatre. These could (it goes without saying) do with a lot more attention. But Europe being as it is that is not possible.

(There are likely plenty of Americans who also wish it were otherwise.)

Never mind Sertorio. Likely a European with bruised pride over the fact that Europe is not central to world affairs the way it was for a time in the 19th century.
And Portugal had an overseas empire. Interesting theory, Neverfail.
The Imp :D

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Sertorio
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Re: Should Ukraine destroy the Crimean Bridge?

Post by Sertorio » Thu May 19, 2022 12:58 am

cassowary wrote:
Wed May 18, 2022 11:20 pm
neverfail wrote:
Wed May 18, 2022 10:10 pm
cassowary wrote:
Wed May 18, 2022 7:18 pm
You are absolutely correct, Neverfail. Old wounds will start bleeding again. But Sertorio does not realise this or refused to accept reality. A divided Europe cannot hope to withstand Russian aggression. Maybe that’s what Sertorio wants. Russian domination of Europe.
Thanks Cass, sad but true! Like you I only wish that the countries of Europe could gel together into a working power bloc in line with their collective potential in order to free up American resources for redeployment to the Asia-Pacific theatre. These could (it goes without saying) do with a lot more attention. But Europe being as it is that is not possible.

(There are likely plenty of Americans who also wish it were otherwise.)

Never mind Sertorio. Likely a European with bruised pride over the fact that Europe is not central to world affairs the way it was for a time in the 19th century.
And Portugal had an overseas empire. Interesting theory, Neverfail.
Our relations with our former colonies are extremely good. Thousands of people from those former colonies have emigrated to Portugal and they have been very well accepted. After all they lived side by side with us for over 400 years and are easily seen as Portuguese. We have absolutely no hangovers from our colonial past.

As to building an European army, it would be easy. What is missing is the political will, and American willingness to accept it.

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cassowary
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Re: Should Ukraine destroy the Crimean Bridge?

Post by cassowary » Thu May 19, 2022 1:07 am

Sertorio wrote:
Thu May 19, 2022 12:58 am


As to building an European army, it would be easy. What is missing is the political will, and American willingness to accept it.
What is missing is European inability to cooperate. Too many old wounds.
The Imp :D

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Sertorio
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Re: Should Ukraine destroy the Crimean Bridge?

Post by Sertorio » Thu May 19, 2022 1:20 am

cassowary wrote:
Thu May 19, 2022 1:07 am
Sertorio wrote:
Thu May 19, 2022 12:58 am


As to building an European army, it would be easy. What is missing is the political will, and American willingness to accept it.
What is missing is European inability to cooperate. Too many old wounds.
Irrelevant. We fought Spain and Spaniards for hundreds of years, were under their power for 60 years, and we have extremely good relations with them. Absolutely no grudges against them. You couldn't find a Portuguese today who would mistrust Spain or Spaniards.

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