What happens when Socialists run out of other people's money

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cassowary
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What happens when Socialists run out of other people's money

Post by cassowary » Tue Jan 09, 2018 6:59 am

Venezuela: Karma for people who use their vote to rob others.
Prime Minister Thatcher once famously observed that socialists "always run out of other people's money." But what actually happens when socialism runs out of money?

Venezuela, a once wealthy nation with black gold coming out of the ground, is a test case.
Only Socialism can make a rich country go bankrupt.
Venezuelan socialists took a booming economy, destroyed its currency and reduced it to a barter economy. That’s what happens when socialists finally run out of other people’s money.

If you want to imagine the future of socialism, picture trading sugar for beans on social media.

That’s the leftist economy of tomorrow brought to you by their welfare policies of today.
Trump and his Republican colleagues must do welfare reform (ie cut welfare spending) next. Or the US will one day become like Venezuela.

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SteveFoerster
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Re: What happens when Socialists run out of other people's money

Post by SteveFoerster » Tue Jan 09, 2018 1:07 pm

cassowary wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 6:59 am
Trump and his Republican colleagues must do welfare reform (ie cut welfare spending) next. Or the US will one day become like Venezuela.
To clarify, then by "welfare" you're referring to Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid, not to programmes like AFDC and SNAP.

You heard it here first: the Republicans don't have the political will to touch those programmes, and the Democrats don't have any interest in doing so.
Writer, technologist, educator, gadfly.
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Milo
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Re: What happens when Socialists run out of other people's money

Post by Milo » Tue Jan 09, 2018 5:33 pm

SteveFoerster wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 1:07 pm
cassowary wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 6:59 am
Trump and his Republican colleagues must do welfare reform (ie cut welfare spending) next. Or the US will one day become like Venezuela.
To clarify, then by "welfare" you're referring to Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid, not to programmes like AFDC and SNAP.

You heard it here first: the Republicans don't have the political will to touch those programmes, and the Democrats don't have any interest in doing so.
Not to mention the latest crop of defence white elephants, farm subsides and fat cat bailouts!

"Think about that. The largest, wealthiest, most powerful organizations in the world are on the public dole. Where is the outrage? Back when I was young, people went into a frenzy at the thought of some unemployed person using food stamps to buy liquor or cigarettes. Ronald Reagan famously campaigned against welfare queens. The right has always been obsessed with moochers. But Boeing receives $13 billion in government handouts and everyone yawns, when conservatives should be grabbing their pitchfork."

https://www.forbes.com/sites/taxanalyst ... 3e83c327dd

Possibly the first act of Trumponomics was a big handout to a big corporation that didn't need it.

"An Indiana board has endorsed directing $7 million in state tax breaks and grants for a deal brokered by President Donald Trump toward stemming job losses from a Carrier Corp. factory in Indianapolis to Mexico.

The Indiana Economic Development Board approved the incentive package Tuesday, nearly four months after Trump celebrated the deal at the furnace factory."

https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states ... p-brokered

I know though that Cass will find a way to say that Trump is a free market guy, because he is fully committed to doing so.

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cassowary
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Re: What happens when Socialists run out of other people's money

Post by cassowary » Wed Jan 10, 2018 5:18 am

Hi Milo,

The Tax reform package has reduced corporate welfare. Lobbyists from various business groups want to see their favorite deductions preserved. For example, the real estate and mortgage lending groups (banks) want to see mortgage interest to remain deductible.

But the tax reform package has put a cap on how much mortgage interest can be deducted from your income. So this bit of corporate welfare has been reduced. There are other deductions that the reform package reduced or eliminated, according to this article, "GOP is right to ridiculous deductions in tax plan". But it did not elaborate.

Excerpt:
The proposed bill caps the tax deduction for mortgage interest, which does not benefit the economy, does cost the government a lot of money (which again, must be raised some other way, such as through higher marginal tax rates) and pushes up the price of housing, particularly in more affluent areas.
Too bad for banks and real estate companies, including Trump's property companies. it could lead to a decline of property prices in New York.
These two proposals are complemented by a number of equally salutary, though less well-known, reforms on the business deduction side.
So there are other deductions that amount to corporate welfare but the author did not identify them. The second deduction mentioned in the article is the deduction of SALT. But this does not amount to corporate welfare tbough it will reduce income in places like NY and possible have an adverse effect on Trump's property prices.

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Milo
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Re: What happens when Socialists run out of other people's money

Post by Milo » Wed Jan 10, 2018 8:19 am

cassowary wrote:
Wed Jan 10, 2018 5:18 am
Hi Milo,

The Tax reform package has reduced corporate welfare. Lobbyists from various business groups want to see their favorite deductions preserved. For example, the real estate and mortgage lending groups (banks) want to see mortgage interest to remain deductible.

But the tax reform package has put a cap on how much mortgage interest can be deducted from your income. So this bit of corporate welfare has been reduced. There are other deductions that the reform package reduced or eliminated, according to this article, "GOP is right to ridiculous deductions in tax plan". But it did not elaborate.

Excerpt:
The proposed bill caps the tax deduction for mortgage interest, which does not benefit the economy, does cost the government a lot of money (which again, must be raised some other way, such as through higher marginal tax rates) and pushes up the price of housing, particularly in more affluent areas.
Too bad for banks and real estate companies, including Trump's property companies. it could lead to a decline of property prices in New York.
These two proposals are complemented by a number of equally salutary, though less well-known, reforms on the business deduction side.
So there are other deductions that amount to corporate welfare but the author did not identify them. The second deduction mentioned in the article is the deduction of SALT. But this does not amount to corporate welfare tbough it will reduce income in places like NY and possible have an adverse effect on Trump's property prices.
The same article says:

"It is hard not to notice that this bill is designed to spread benefits among Trump supporters, particularly the Republican donor class, while laying most of the costs on a single group of people: six-figure professionals living in blue states, a group known as the HENRYs (High Earning, Not Rich Yet). One can make a principled justification for levying high taxes on the rich. One can make a principled justification for taxing everyone equally, share and share alike. But what is the principle by which almost all of the pain of this tax bill should be borne by affluent, but not rich, people who happen to live on the coasts? Other than “we don't like them.”"

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cassowary
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Re: What happens when Socialists run out of other people's money

Post by cassowary » Wed Jan 10, 2018 7:20 pm

Milo wrote:
Wed Jan 10, 2018 8:19 am
cassowary wrote:
Wed Jan 10, 2018 5:18 am
Hi Milo,

The Tax reform package has reduced corporate welfare. Lobbyists from various business groups want to see their favorite deductions preserved. For example, the real estate and mortgage lending groups (banks) want to see mortgage interest to remain deductible.

But the tax reform package has put a cap on how much mortgage interest can be deducted from your income. So this bit of corporate welfare has been reduced. There are other deductions that the reform package reduced or eliminated, according to this article, "GOP is right to go after ridiculous deductions in tax plan". But it did not elaborate.

Excerpt:
The proposed bill caps the tax deduction for mortgage interest, which does not benefit the economy, does cost the government a lot of money (which again, must be raised some other way, such as through higher marginal tax rates) and pushes up the price of housing, particularly in more affluent areas.
Too bad for banks and real estate companies, including Trump's property companies. it could lead to a decline of property prices in New York.
These two proposals are complemented by a number of equally salutary, though less well-known, reforms on the business deduction side.
So there are other deductions that amount to corporate welfare but the author did not identify them. The second deduction mentioned in the article is the deduction of SALT. But this does not amount to corporate welfare tbough it will reduce income in places like NY and possible have an adverse effect on Trump's property prices.
The same article says:

"It is hard not to notice that this bill is designed to spread benefits among Trump supporters, particularly the Republican donor class, while laying most of the costs on a single group of people: six-figure professionals living in blue states, a group known as the HENRYs (High Earning, Not Rich Yet). One can make a principled justification for levying high taxes on the rich. One can make a principled justification for taxing everyone equally, share and share alike. But what is the principle by which almost all of the pain of this tax bill should be borne by affluent, but not rich, people who happen to live on the coasts? Other than “we don't like them.”"
Yes, I know. Trump is only giving them what they asked for - wealth redistribution from rich people. Those affected are in blue states. As we know, Democrats are always railing about getting the rich to pay their fair share, so they got what they asked for. After all, they voted for them. Before you can say that they are HENRYS, let me say that this concept is nonsense. If they have high income, then they are rich.

neverfail
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Re: What happens when Socialists run out of other people's money

Post by neverfail » Fri Jan 12, 2018 3:41 am

Milo wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 5:33 pm
SteveFoerster wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 1:07 pm
cassowary wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 6:59 am
Trump and his Republican colleagues must do welfare reform (ie cut welfare spending) next. Or the US will one day become like Venezuela.
To clarify, then by "welfare" you're referring to Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid, not to programmes like AFDC and SNAP.

You heard it here first: the Republicans don't have the political will to touch those programmes, and the Democrats don't have any interest in doing so.
Not to mention the latest crop of defence white elephants, farm subsides and fat cat bailouts!
Strange: I notice that whenever cass thinks "welfare reform" he always seems to lobby to have survival money taken away from the poor - not the removal of unwonted state subsidies from wealthy and powerful corporations.

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cassowary
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Re: What happens when Socialists run out of other people's money

Post by cassowary » Fri Jan 12, 2018 4:18 am

neverfail wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 3:41 am
Milo wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 5:33 pm
SteveFoerster wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 1:07 pm
cassowary wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 6:59 am
Trump and his Republican colleagues must do welfare reform (ie cut welfare spending) next. Or the US will one day become like Venezuela.
To clarify, then by "welfare" you're referring to Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid, not to programmes like AFDC and SNAP.

You heard it here first: the Republicans don't have the political will to touch those programmes, and the Democrats don't have any interest in doing so.
Not to mention the latest crop of defence white elephants, farm subsides and fat cat bailouts!
Strange: I notice that whenever cass thinks "welfare reform" he always seems to lobby to have survival money taken away from the poor - not the removal of unwonted state subsidies from wealthy and powerful corporations.
At least the corporates are creating wealth. But I agree that corporate welfare should be eradicated. It distorts the market. A step has been taken with the Tax Reform Bill, as I explained above.

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Re: What happens when Socialists run out of other people's money

Post by SteveFoerster » Fri Jan 12, 2018 8:55 am

neverfail wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 3:41 am
Milo wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 5:33 pm
SteveFoerster wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 1:07 pm
cassowary wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 6:59 am
Trump and his Republican colleagues must do welfare reform (ie cut welfare spending) next. Or the US will one day become like Venezuela.
To clarify, then by "welfare" you're referring to Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid, not to programmes like AFDC and SNAP.

You heard it here first: the Republicans don't have the political will to touch those programmes, and the Democrats don't have any interest in doing so.
Not to mention the latest crop of defence white elephants, farm subsides and fat cat bailouts!
Strange: I notice that whenever cass thinks "welfare reform" he always seems to lobby to have survival money taken away from the poor - not the removal of unwonted state subsidies from wealthy and powerful corporations.
I'm all for killing corporate subsidies and have said so many times. I also want to slash military spending, since that's mostly just another example of corporate welfare.

At least if we're talking about entitlement programs (Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid), that's two-thirds of the U.S. federal budget. Sooner or later access to those programs will have to be metered, whether through changing the age of eligibility or by means testing them. Part of the political problem with the latter would be that Americans have been conditioned to think that they've "paid into" a system where there's a "trust fund" holding their individual money, when that's not the case at all.
Writer, technologist, educator, gadfly.
President of New World University: http://newworld.ac

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Milo
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Re: What happens when Socialists run out of other people's money

Post by Milo » Fri Jan 12, 2018 8:40 pm

SteveFoerster wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 8:55 am
neverfail wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 3:41 am
Milo wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 5:33 pm
SteveFoerster wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 1:07 pm
cassowary wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 6:59 am
Trump and his Republican colleagues must do welfare reform (ie cut welfare spending) next. Or the US will one day become like Venezuela.
To clarify, then by "welfare" you're referring to Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid, not to programmes like AFDC and SNAP.

You heard it here first: the Republicans don't have the political will to touch those programmes, and the Democrats don't have any interest in doing so.
Not to mention the latest crop of defence white elephants, farm subsides and fat cat bailouts!
Strange: I notice that whenever cass thinks "welfare reform" he always seems to lobby to have survival money taken away from the poor - not the removal of unwonted state subsidies from wealthy and powerful corporations.
I'm all for killing corporate subsidies and have said so many times. I also want to slash military spending, since that's mostly just another example of corporate welfare.

At least if we're talking about entitlement programs (Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid), that's two-thirds of the U.S. federal budget. Sooner or later access to those programs will have to be metered, whether through changing the age of eligibility or by means testing them. Part of the political problem with the latter would be that Americans have been conditioned to think that they've "paid into" a system where there's a "trust fund" holding their individual money, when that's not the case at all.
For my entire life I've heard that we must cut these programs or within 'insert pat number here' we will go broke. We aren't broke and the programs keep expanding.

Also raising taxes to better fund the programs never seems to be the mooted solution for some reason.

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