Australia aiming to build its own unmanned subs

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neverfail
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Australia aiming to build its own unmanned subs

Post by neverfail » Mon May 09, 2022 12:09 am

https://asiatimes.com/2022/05/australia ... nned-subs/

Move to bolster underwater warfare capabilities comes amid rising tensions with China in the South Pacific
All right! If we can do stuff like that all by ourselves, do we really need those ballyhooed AUKUS nuclear powered submarines: which are unlikely to be delivered until the 2040's and are sure to be expensive?

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Milo
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Re: Australia aiming to build its own unmanned subs

Post by Milo » Tue May 10, 2022 6:23 am

I am not remotely qualified to answer you but I think any professional military in the world is planning to move to forces where the manned component is mostly there to serve as command and control for drones. This will be across all theatres and missions.

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Sertorio
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Re: Australia aiming to build its own unmanned subs

Post by Sertorio » Tue May 10, 2022 6:30 am

neverfail wrote:
Mon May 09, 2022 12:09 am
https://asiatimes.com/2022/05/australia ... nned-subs/

Move to bolster underwater warfare capabilities comes amid rising tensions with China in the South Pacific
All right! If we can do stuff like that all by ourselves, do we really need those ballyhooed AUKUS nuclear powered submarines: which are unlikely to be delivered until the 2040's and are sure to be expensive?
And the best would be for the Australian government to train Aboriginal people to build those subs. Like that their rate of unemployment would go down and they might even be able to afford medical care...

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neverfail
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Re: Australia aiming to build its own unmanned subs

Post by neverfail » Tue May 10, 2022 3:13 pm

Milo wrote:
Tue May 10, 2022 6:23 am
I am not remotely qualified to answer you but I think any professional military in the world is planning to move to forces where the manned component is mostly there to serve as command and control for drones. This will be across all theatres and missions.
Good observation Milo! And of course we cannot afford to be left behind.

So our proposed fleet of nuclear subs might turn into an expensive white elephant: much like the fleet of French designed conventional subs before our government pulled the plug on that deal?

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neverfail
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Re: Australia aiming to build its own unmanned subs

Post by neverfail » Tue May 10, 2022 3:15 pm

Sertorio wrote:
Tue May 10, 2022 6:30 am
And the best would be for the Australian government to train Aboriginal people to build those subs. Like that their rate of unemployment would go down and they might even be able to afford medical care...
Well, why not? They taught us how to carve wooden boomerangs! :D

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Milo
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Re: Australia aiming to build its own unmanned subs

Post by Milo » Wed May 11, 2022 8:45 am

neverfail wrote:
Tue May 10, 2022 3:13 pm
Milo wrote:
Tue May 10, 2022 6:23 am
I am not remotely qualified to answer you but I think any professional military in the world is planning to move to forces where the manned component is mostly there to serve as command and control for drones. This will be across all theatres and missions.
Good observation Milo! And of course we cannot afford to be left behind.

So our proposed fleet of nuclear subs might turn into an expensive white elephant: much like the fleet of French designed conventional subs before our government pulled the plug on that deal?
Yes, I am sure they will, but sometimes the willingness to build such a white elephant can be a powerful deterrent in and of itself. And the agreement that got you the subs also got you other things as I recall.

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neverfail
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Re: Australia aiming to build its own unmanned subs

Post by neverfail » Wed May 11, 2022 8:44 pm

Milo wrote:
Wed May 11, 2022 8:45 am
neverfail wrote:
Tue May 10, 2022 3:13 pm
Milo wrote:
Tue May 10, 2022 6:23 am
I am not remotely qualified to answer you but I think any professional military in the world is planning to move to forces where the manned component is mostly there to serve as command and control for drones. This will be across all theatres and missions.
Good observation Milo! And of course we cannot afford to be left behind.

So our proposed fleet of nuclear subs might turn into an expensive white elephant: much like the fleet of French designed conventional subs before our government pulled the plug on that deal?
Yes, I am sure they will, but sometimes the willingness to build such a white elephant can be a powerful deterrent in and of itself. And the agreement that got you the subs also got you other things as I recall.

Yes, it is likely that these "extras"; the equivalent of which the French deal could not match, might make the cost worthwhile.

Meantime, I an still troubled by the thought of the yet to be determined cost of those eight submarines - and the ongoing cost thereafter of the maintenance and upkeep of the subs; which includes the provision of infrastructure that this country currently does not have. That is bound to be very costly as well.

The cancelled French deal included provision for ten of the twelve submarines to be built at an Australian shipyard. The idea being that the resultant technology transfer from France to Australia would have allowed this country to make more of them in future should changing geostrategic pressures necessitate the future expansion of the submarine wing of our navy. But I have not heard of a single clause in the AUKUS deal obliging our Anglo ally/allies to do the same. So the shipyard at Adelaide whose output is essential to the regional economy in our demographically small state of South Australia will miss out on that along with the expanded employment opportunities that go with it. Further, having burned our bridges with France has left our current and any future government in a weak bargaining position viz our Anglo allies. With nowhere else for us to go they do not need to give us anything.

(Out of curiosity Milo: does the Royal Canadian Navy have any nuclear subs - or plans to acquire them?)

...................................................................................................................................

p.s. you along with other davosman.org regulars are likely unaware that we are in the throes of an electio9n campaign here in Australia. Not a world shattering event; and even if the outcome is a change of government as I and many others are anticipating them it will likely make no difference as commitment to the AUKUS deal is bi-partisan.

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Milo
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Re: Australia aiming to build its own unmanned subs

Post by Milo » Thu May 12, 2022 8:50 am

neverfail wrote:
Wed May 11, 2022 8:44 pm
Milo wrote:
Wed May 11, 2022 8:45 am
neverfail wrote:
Tue May 10, 2022 3:13 pm
Milo wrote:
Tue May 10, 2022 6:23 am
I am not remotely qualified to answer you but I think any professional military in the world is planning to move to forces where the manned component is mostly there to serve as command and control for drones. This will be across all theatres and missions.
Good observation Milo! And of course we cannot afford to be left behind.

So our proposed fleet of nuclear subs might turn into an expensive white elephant: much like the fleet of French designed conventional subs before our government pulled the plug on that deal?
Yes, I am sure they will, but sometimes the willingness to build such a white elephant can be a powerful deterrent in and of itself. And the agreement that got you the subs also got you other things as I recall.

Yes, it is likely that these "extras"; the equivalent of which the French deal could not match, might make the cost worthwhile.

Meantime, I an still troubled by the thought of the yet to be determined cost of those eight submarines - and the ongoing cost thereafter of the maintenance and upkeep of the subs; which includes the provision of infrastructure that this country currently does not have. That is bound to be very costly as well.

The cancelled French deal included provision for ten of the twelve submarines to be built at an Australian shipyard. The idea being that the resultant technology transfer from France to Australia would have allowed this country to make more of them in future should changing geostrategic pressures necessitate the future expansion of the submarine wing of our navy. But I have not heard of a single clause in the AUKUS deal obliging our Anglo ally/allies to do the same. So the shipyard at Adelaide whose output is essential to the regional economy in our demographically small state of South Australia will miss out on that along with the expanded employment opportunities that go with it. Further, having burned our bridges with France has left our current and any future government in a weak bargaining position viz our Anglo allies. With nowhere else for us to go they do not need to give us anything.

(Out of curiosity Milo: does the Royal Canadian Navy have any nuclear subs - or plans to acquire them?)

...................................................................................................................................

p.s. you along with other davosman.org regulars are likely unaware that we are in the throes of an electio9n campaign here in Australia. Not a world shattering event; and even if the outcome is a change of government as I and many others are anticipating them it will likely make no difference as commitment to the AUKUS deal is bi-partisan.
I would say too that AUKUS asked for eight subs because they can make do with 3-5 of them!

The RCN passed on nuclear subs long ago and it would be a huge reversal to go nuke now.

As time goes by, and manned military vehicles become more of a machine learning administered command and control platform for drones, the demand for these subs will be reduced: nobody will send a manned sub where they can send a drone! Australia will reduce its order and everyone will fiddle things so the contractors get plenty of money anyway.

Nobody will send a manned anything where they can send a drone for that matter. Even if the drones aren’t as good, you just build more! No coffins, no grieving relatives, just killing with HQ footage!

I think the concerns that automation is going to kill corporate employment may be misplaced. I think the biggest imminent jobs threat by automation will come in the form of drones replacing a huge number of military jobs!

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Sertorio
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Re: Australia aiming to build its own unmanned subs

Post by Sertorio » Thu May 12, 2022 9:03 am

Milo wrote:
Thu May 12, 2022 8:50 am

I think the concerns that automation is going to kill corporate employment may be misplaced. I think the biggest imminent jobs threat by automation will come in the form of drones replacing a huge number of military jobs!
When that happens, cities and civilians will again become the targets in any war, as countries will surrender only when the enemy hurts them bad. Destroying drones does not cause enough pain...

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Milo
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Re: Australia aiming to build its own unmanned subs

Post by Milo » Thu May 12, 2022 9:10 am

Sertorio wrote:
Thu May 12, 2022 9:03 am
Milo wrote:
Thu May 12, 2022 8:50 am

I think the concerns that automation is going to kill corporate employment may be misplaced. I think the biggest imminent jobs threat by automation will come in the form of drones replacing a huge number of military jobs!
When that happens, cities and civilians will again become the targets in any war, as countries will surrender only when the enemy hurts them bad. Destroying drones does not cause enough pain...
"again become the targets”? When did that stop?

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