Finland wants to join NATO. Putin issues threat, launched cyberattack and breached airspace

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neverfail
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Re: Finland wants to join NATO. Putin issues threat, launched cyberattack and breached airspace

Post by neverfail » Mon Apr 25, 2022 7:32 pm

Sertorio wrote:
Mon Apr 25, 2022 3:01 pm
neverfail wrote:
Mon Apr 25, 2022 2:43 pm
Sertorio wrote:
Mon Apr 25, 2022 12:41 am
The US has always betrayed its allies when it felt it was in its immediate interest to do so. Why would it stop now?...
Name the allies the US has betrayed and when.
Britain and France during the Suez Canal crisis; South Vietnam when the US made a deal with North Vietnam...
Agreed, it did! But neither of the above were crucial either to world peace or US defense security. Both were, in other words, expendable.

Could the US afford to see NATO Europe fed to the wolves? Not at all!

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Sertorio
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Re: Finland wants to join NATO. Putin issues threat, launched cyberattack and breached airspace

Post by Sertorio » Tue Apr 26, 2022 12:33 am

neverfail wrote:
Mon Apr 25, 2022 7:32 pm
Sertorio wrote:
Mon Apr 25, 2022 3:01 pm
neverfail wrote:
Mon Apr 25, 2022 2:43 pm
Sertorio wrote:
Mon Apr 25, 2022 12:41 am
The US has always betrayed its allies when it felt it was in its immediate interest to do so. Why would it stop now?...
Name the allies the US has betrayed and when.
Britain and France during the Suez Canal crisis; South Vietnam when the US made a deal with North Vietnam...
Agreed, it did! But neither of the above were crucial either to world peace or US defense security. Both were, in other words, expendable.

Could the US afford to see NATO Europe fed to the wolves? Not at all!
The point I am making is that if the US feels that the Baltic states are not worth the destruction of several major American cities, it will remain passive if Russia decides to neutralize those states. NATO or no NATO. Sometimes I even wonder whether the US would risk destruction at all just to save Europe from some bother with Russia...Odds are it wouldn't...

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SteveFoerster
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Re: Finland wants to join NATO. Putin issues threat, launched cyberattack and breached airspace

Post by SteveFoerster » Tue Apr 26, 2022 7:29 am

Sertorio wrote:
Tue Apr 26, 2022 12:33 am
neverfail wrote:
Mon Apr 25, 2022 7:32 pm
Sertorio wrote:
Mon Apr 25, 2022 3:01 pm
neverfail wrote:
Mon Apr 25, 2022 2:43 pm
Sertorio wrote:
Mon Apr 25, 2022 12:41 am
The US has always betrayed its allies when it felt it was in its immediate interest to do so. Why would it stop now?...
Name the allies the US has betrayed and when.
Britain and France during the Suez Canal crisis; South Vietnam when the US made a deal with North Vietnam...
Agreed, it did! But neither of the above were crucial either to world peace or US defense security. Both were, in other words, expendable.

Could the US afford to see NATO Europe fed to the wolves? Not at all!
The point I am making is that if the US feels that the Baltic states are not worth the destruction of several major American cities, it will remain passive if Russia decides to neutralize those states. NATO or no NATO. Sometimes I even wonder whether the US would risk destruction at all just to save Europe from some bother with Russia...Odds are it wouldn't...
Russian forces cannot even chew what they've bitten off already.
Writer, technologist, educator, gadfly.
President of New World University: https://newworld.ac

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Sertorio
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Re: Finland wants to join NATO. Putin issues threat, launched cyberattack and breached airspace

Post by Sertorio » Tue Apr 26, 2022 10:02 am

SteveFoerster wrote:
Tue Apr 26, 2022 7:29 am
Sertorio wrote:
Tue Apr 26, 2022 12:33 am
neverfail wrote:
Mon Apr 25, 2022 7:32 pm
Sertorio wrote:
Mon Apr 25, 2022 3:01 pm
neverfail wrote:
Mon Apr 25, 2022 2:43 pm
Sertorio wrote:
Mon Apr 25, 2022 12:41 am
The US has always betrayed its allies when it felt it was in its immediate interest to do so. Why would it stop now?...
Name the allies the US has betrayed and when.
Britain and France during the Suez Canal crisis; South Vietnam when the US made a deal with North Vietnam...
Agreed, it did! But neither of the above were crucial either to world peace or US defense security. Both were, in other words, expendable.

Could the US afford to see NATO Europe fed to the wolves? Not at all!
The point I am making is that if the US feels that the Baltic states are not worth the destruction of several major American cities, it will remain passive if Russia decides to neutralize those states. NATO or no NATO. Sometimes I even wonder whether the US would risk destruction at all just to save Europe from some bother with Russia...Odds are it wouldn't...
Russian forces cannot even chew what they've bitten off already.
Wait and see...

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SteveFoerster
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Re: Finland wants to join NATO. Putin issues threat, launched cyberattack and breached airspace

Post by SteveFoerster » Tue Apr 26, 2022 10:23 am

Sertorio wrote:
Tue Apr 26, 2022 10:02 am
SteveFoerster wrote:
Tue Apr 26, 2022 7:29 am
Sertorio wrote:
Tue Apr 26, 2022 12:33 am
neverfail wrote:
Mon Apr 25, 2022 7:32 pm
Sertorio wrote:
Mon Apr 25, 2022 3:01 pm
neverfail wrote:
Mon Apr 25, 2022 2:43 pm


Name the allies the US has betrayed and when.
Britain and France during the Suez Canal crisis; South Vietnam when the US made a deal with North Vietnam...
Agreed, it did! But neither of the above were crucial either to world peace or US defense security. Both were, in other words, expendable.

Could the US afford to see NATO Europe fed to the wolves? Not at all!
The point I am making is that if the US feels that the Baltic states are not worth the destruction of several major American cities, it will remain passive if Russia decides to neutralize those states. NATO or no NATO. Sometimes I even wonder whether the US would risk destruction at all just to save Europe from some bother with Russia...Odds are it wouldn't...
Russian forces cannot even chew what they've bitten off already.
Wait and see...
Five weeks ago I said it was clear that the best Russia could hope for was a Pyrrhic victory, and nothing that's happened since changes that. Russian forces may eventually succeed in grinding down the Ukrainians until they're down to guerrilla tactics, but the perception of Russia as a world class military power has been shattered.
Writer, technologist, educator, gadfly.
President of New World University: https://newworld.ac

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Sertorio
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Re: Finland wants to join NATO. Putin issues threat, launched cyberattack and breached airspace

Post by Sertorio » Tue Apr 26, 2022 10:27 am

SteveFoerster wrote:
Tue Apr 26, 2022 10:23 am
Sertorio wrote:
Tue Apr 26, 2022 10:02 am
SteveFoerster wrote:
Tue Apr 26, 2022 7:29 am
Sertorio wrote:
Tue Apr 26, 2022 12:33 am
neverfail wrote:
Mon Apr 25, 2022 7:32 pm
Sertorio wrote:
Mon Apr 25, 2022 3:01 pm


Britain and France during the Suez Canal crisis; South Vietnam when the US made a deal with North Vietnam...
Agreed, it did! But neither of the above were crucial either to world peace or US defense security. Both were, in other words, expendable.

Could the US afford to see NATO Europe fed to the wolves? Not at all!
The point I am making is that if the US feels that the Baltic states are not worth the destruction of several major American cities, it will remain passive if Russia decides to neutralize those states. NATO or no NATO. Sometimes I even wonder whether the US would risk destruction at all just to save Europe from some bother with Russia...Odds are it wouldn't...
Russian forces cannot even chew what they've bitten off already.
Wait and see...
Five weeks ago I said it was clear that the best Russia could hope for was a Pyrrhic victory, and nothing that's happened since changes that. Russian forces may eventually succeed in grinding down the Ukrainians until they're down to guerrilla tactics, but the perception of Russia as a world class military power has been shattered.
Guerrilla tactics in a part of the Ukraine where the majority of the population is ethnic Russian or Russian speaking? You must be kidding...

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SteveFoerster
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Re: Finland wants to join NATO. Putin issues threat, launched cyberattack and breached airspace

Post by SteveFoerster » Tue Apr 26, 2022 1:45 pm

Sertorio wrote:
Tue Apr 26, 2022 10:27 am
SteveFoerster wrote:
Tue Apr 26, 2022 10:23 am
Sertorio wrote:
Tue Apr 26, 2022 10:02 am
SteveFoerster wrote:
Tue Apr 26, 2022 7:29 am
Sertorio wrote:
Tue Apr 26, 2022 12:33 am
neverfail wrote:
Mon Apr 25, 2022 7:32 pm


Agreed, it did! But neither of the above were crucial either to world peace or US defense security. Both were, in other words, expendable.

Could the US afford to see NATO Europe fed to the wolves? Not at all!
The point I am making is that if the US feels that the Baltic states are not worth the destruction of several major American cities, it will remain passive if Russia decides to neutralize those states. NATO or no NATO. Sometimes I even wonder whether the US would risk destruction at all just to save Europe from some bother with Russia...Odds are it wouldn't...
Russian forces cannot even chew what they've bitten off already.
Wait and see...
Five weeks ago I said it was clear that the best Russia could hope for was a Pyrrhic victory, and nothing that's happened since changes that. Russian forces may eventually succeed in grinding down the Ukrainians until they're down to guerrilla tactics, but the perception of Russia as a world class military power has been shattered.
Guerrilla tactics in a part of the Ukraine where the majority of the population is ethnic Russian or Russian speaking? You must be kidding...
You're wrongly assuming that everyone in Ukraine who speaks Russian is on Putin's side.
Writer, technologist, educator, gadfly.
President of New World University: https://newworld.ac

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neverfail
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Re: Finland wants to join NATO. Putin issues threat, launched cyberattack and breached airspace

Post by neverfail » Tue Apr 26, 2022 3:30 pm

SteveFoerster wrote:
Tue Apr 26, 2022 1:45 pm
You're wrongly assuming that everyone in Ukraine who speaks Russian is on Putin's side.
Yes, as a legacy from Soviet times I believe that a lot of Ukrainians speak Russian as an acquired second language. The native Russian speakers of Ukraine's far eastern provinces are comparatively few in number.

Since the invasion began plenty of Ukrainians have been interviewed by Western TV reporters and I have been impressed by the number who seem to have picked up English as a secondary language: but does this make them Anglo-Saxons? :lol:

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Sertorio
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Re: Finland wants to join NATO. Putin issues threat, launched cyberattack and breached airspace

Post by Sertorio » Tue Apr 26, 2022 4:33 pm

neverfail wrote:
Tue Apr 26, 2022 3:30 pm
SteveFoerster wrote:
Tue Apr 26, 2022 1:45 pm
You're wrongly assuming that everyone in Ukraine who speaks Russian is on Putin's side.
Yes, as a legacy from Soviet times I believe that a lot of Ukrainians speak Russian as an acquired second language. The native Russian speakers of Ukraine's far eastern provinces are comparatively few in number.

Since the invasion began plenty of Ukrainians have been interviewed by Western TV reporters and I have been impressed by the number who seem to have picked up English as a secondary language: but does this make them Anglo-Saxons? :lol:
Keep dreaming. You should listen to the interviews made with people from Mariupol and other cities taken by Russia and hear what they have to say about how they are treated now and how they were treated by the Ukrainian army. All propaganda of course. Only interviews aired by the BBC or CNN are reliable and truthful...

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Sertorio
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Re: Finland wants to join NATO. Putin issues threat, launched cyberattack and breached airspace

Post by Sertorio » Tue Apr 26, 2022 4:43 pm

NATO member pledges to block Sweden and Finland's candidacy
https://www.rt.com/news/554563-croatia- ... to-bosnia/

Finland and Sweden joining NATO is “very dangerous charlatanry” and amounts to provoking Russia, Croatian President Zoran Milanovic said on Tuesday. Zagreb will refuse to ratify their membership until the US and EU pressure the neighboring Bosnia-Herzegovina into guaranteeing ethnic Croats their basic voting rights, Milanovic added.

“As far as I’m concerned, they can get into NATO, they can poke the rabid bear in the eye with a pen,” Milanovic told reporters in Zagreb on Tuesday.

“However, until the electoral law issue in Bosnia-Herzegovina is resolved, until the Americans, the English, the Germans – if they can and want to – compel Sarajevo and Bakir Izetbegovic to update the electoral law in the next six months and grant Croats their elementary rights, the Sabor must not ratify anyone’s admission to NATO,” he added, referring to the Croatian parliament.

NATO cannot admit new members without the approval of the current ones, Milanovic pointed out, adding that he sees Croatia’s role at this moment as “a historic silver bullet.”

“Let the US president or secretary of state hear this now. Let’s see what they can do for Croatia. I’ve had enough of them ignoring and neglecting a NATO and EU member, and sidelining Croatia,” Milanovic said, adding that if the US and its Western European allies want the two Scandinavian countries in NATO, “they will have to listen to Croatia.”

Croatia’s biggest grievance is the current electoral system in the neighboring Bosnia-Herzegovina, which has an ethnic Croat community recognized as equal under the 1995 constitution that ended the civil war. Zagreb insists on updates to the electoral law so that Croats in Bosnia would be able to elect their own representatives, as opposed to the current practice of having them elected by the much larger community of Bosnian Muslims, also known as Bosniaks.

In addition to Bosnia, Milanovic listed some of Zagreb’s other grievances: refusal by the EU to admit Bulgaria and Romania into the Schengen border crossing agreement, lack of recognition for the breakaway Serbian province of Kosovo, and no progress in EU talks with Albania and North Macedonia – which even changed its name recently to overcome objections from Greece, to no avail.

We’re not asking Finland or Sweden to change their name to Ikea, only to tell the Americans that these things need to be resolved.

Historically neutral Sweden and Finland have both made moves to join NATO in recent weeks, citing the Russia-Ukraine conflict.

Croatia became a NATO member in 2009 and joined the EU in 2013, when Milanovic was prime minister. The Social Democrat politician has been president since October 2020. It is not clear, however, if his threat to veto NATO expansion will work out in practice, since the nationalist HDZ party has the parliamentary majority.
Surprise, surprise!...

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