What is going on in Iran - A new uprising?

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neverfail
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Re: conscripts versus volunteers as soldiers.

Post by neverfail » Mon Jan 08, 2018 4:05 pm

Sertorio wrote:
Mon Jan 08, 2018 5:13 am

Not really. Most American military join the armed forces because they have no jobs, they have little education and need a steady source of income. They don't join to die for the fatherland. That's why drug abuse is so widespread among soldiers in action. Professional soldiers want to stay alive for the duration of their contract and therefore tend not to take too many risks. Which will tend to lead to defeat if fighting a major war with lots of casualties. The fact that they are asked to fight overseas, very far from home, and thus are not fighting for their homes and their families, will make them extra cautious and less than fully motivated. Russian soldiers, on the other hand, if they are once more asked to fight a major war, will be fighting close to home or on their own soil. They will fight a lot harder and are more likely to defeat the aggressor.
SERTORIO

Are you aware that a typical rank and file Russian soldier of today is a CONSCRIPT? This is to say a young adult doing compulsory national service.

Conscripts, regardless of nationality, are never willing risk takers whenever they have any choice in the matter.

My father was an officer promoted out of the ranks during the Second World War. His own observation was that conscripts (even when these are Australian) are "not worth a cracker" as fighting men. The only soldiers who fought well as a rule were the wartime volunteers and the professionals (i.e. the few who had managed to make a career out of soldiering before the WW2 conflict started).

During World War One and over most of World War Two Australian infantrymen earned themselves a very high reputation for gallantry on the battlefield. A big part of the reason I am now convinced was that our armed forces until mid 1943 was made up entirely of wartime volunteers who were by and large motivated by a sense of patriotism.

Are you aware that the rank and file of the Russian army is made up largely of conscript young national servicemen? Conditions in the Russian army are quite brutal and doing national service is very unpopular. In a conventional war few if any would likely put their lives at risk - unless the alternatives were too horrible to contemplate.

During the Second World War (the great Patriotic War against Fascism to Russians) the Red Army was also made up of wartime conscripts. Predominantly of farm boys from the collectives. Their morale was normally so bad that Stalin had to send elite NKVD troops to line up behind them in order to shoot them down should these retreat against Stalin's orders. Had the Nazis be willing to abide by the Geneva convention on the treatment of prisoners of war in the treatment of Soviet captives (instead of sending them to the death camps) I feel very sure that these would have surrendered to the german side in droves. Just like Mussolini's Italian conscripts surrendering en-masse to British commonwealth forces in North Africa during 1940-41.

So much for the "patriotic" fighting spirit of Russian soldiers.

The USA has not had conscripts in its army since the Vietnam War - and we all know how that turned out for the Americans. So give the contemporary US armed forces their due.

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Sertorio
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Re: conscripts versus volunteers as soldiers.

Post by Sertorio » Mon Jan 08, 2018 5:17 pm

neverfail wrote:
Mon Jan 08, 2018 4:05 pm
Sertorio wrote:
Mon Jan 08, 2018 5:13 am

Not really. Most American military join the armed forces because they have no jobs, they have little education and need a steady source of income. They don't join to die for the fatherland. That's why drug abuse is so widespread among soldiers in action. Professional soldiers want to stay alive for the duration of their contract and therefore tend not to take too many risks. Which will tend to lead to defeat if fighting a major war with lots of casualties. The fact that they are asked to fight overseas, very far from home, and thus are not fighting for their homes and their families, will make them extra cautious and less than fully motivated. Russian soldiers, on the other hand, if they are once more asked to fight a major war, will be fighting close to home or on their own soil. They will fight a lot harder and are more likely to defeat the aggressor.
SERTORIO

Are you aware that a typical rank and file Russian soldier of today is a CONSCRIPT? This is to say a young adult doing compulsory national service.

Conscripts, regardless of nationality, are never willing risk takers whenever they have any choice in the matter.

My father was an officer promoted out of the ranks during the Second World War. His own observation was that conscripts (even when these are Australian) are "not worth a cracker" as fighting men. The only soldiers who fought well as a rule were the wartime volunteers and the professionals (i.e. the few who had managed to make a career out of soldiering before the WW2 conflict started).

During World War One and over most of World War Two Australian infantrymen earned themselves a very high reputation for gallantry on the battlefield. A big part of the reason I am now convinced was that our armed forces until mid 1943 was made up entirely of wartime volunteers who were by and large motivated by a sense of patriotism.

Are you aware that the rank and file of the Russian army is made up largely of conscript young national servicemen? Conditions in the Russian army are quite brutal and doing national service is very unpopular. In a conventional war few if any would likely put their lives at risk - unless the alternatives were too horrible to contemplate.

During the Second World War (the great Patriotic War against Fascism to Russians) the Red Army was also made up of wartime conscripts. Predominantly of farm boys from the collectives. Their morale was normally so bad that Stalin had to send elite NKVD troops to line up behind them in order to shoot them down should these retreat against Stalin's orders. Had the Nazis be willing to abide by the Geneva convention on the treatment of prisoners of war in the treatment of Soviet captives (instead of sending them to the death camps) I feel very sure that these would have surrendered to the german side in droves. Just like Mussolini's Italian conscripts surrendering en-masse to British commonwealth forces in North Africa during 1940-41.

So much for the "patriotic" fighting spirit of Russian soldiers.

The USA has not had conscripts in its army since the Vietnam War - and we all know how that turned out for the Americans. So give the contemporary US armed forces their due.
Out of the professional armies only the elite units fight well. Conscripts will fight very gallantly if they fight for their homes and families, not if they fight in colonial wars or any war of aggression. If ever American troops have to face Russian troops, the chances are that that will happen on Russian soil or very close to it. Then you will see that Russian conscripts will defeat the American professionals. As Napoleon and Hitler learned the hard way. Besides, most US 'professional' soldiers are indeed National Guard soldiers who have little appetite for any type of war.

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cassowary
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Re: What is going on in Iran - A new uprising?

Post by cassowary » Mon Jan 08, 2018 8:30 pm

Did the Russian conscript army fight well in Afghanistan? I thought they got kicked out. But I suppose they were not fighting on their own soil. It was a colonial war.

neverfail
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Re: conscripts versus volunteers as soldiers.

Post by neverfail » Tue Jan 09, 2018 2:29 am

Sertorio wrote:
Mon Jan 08, 2018 5:17 pm
Besides, most US 'professional' soldiers are indeed National Guard soldiers who have little appetite for any type of war.


Point accepted Sertorio. During the 2003 invasion of Iraq I seem to recall that the corveed national guardsmen and guardswomen (conscripts under another title) did not exactly cover themselves with glory.

neverfail
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Re: Islamic zealotry can be very useful when on our side.

Post by neverfail » Tue Jan 09, 2018 2:34 am

cassowary wrote:
Mon Jan 08, 2018 8:30 pm
Did the Russian conscript army fight well in Afghanistan? I thought they got kicked out. But I suppose they were not fighting on their own soil. It was a colonial war....
...and against them were ranged the fearsome Mujahideen: jihadi warriors convinced that they were fighting a holy war against the atheist foreign kafir and were therefore assured of an afterlife of heavenly bliss if they were killed in combat.

How could the Russians have won?

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Milo
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Re: What is going on in Iran - A new uprising?

Post by Milo » Wed Jan 10, 2018 12:42 pm

Human soldiers will soon be as obsolete as horse cavalry.

Learn the lesson of Sphacteria:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of ... Sphacteria

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Doc
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Re: What is going on in Iran - A new uprising?

Post by Doc » Wed Jan 10, 2018 4:35 pm

Milo wrote:
Wed Jan 10, 2018 12:42 pm
Human soldiers will soon be as obsolete as horse cavalry.

Learn the lesson of Sphacteria:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of ... Sphacteria
If Humans are no longer needed will they even be in the loop?
“The further a society drifts from truth the more it will hate those who speak it.” … George Orwell

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Milo
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Re: What is going on in Iran - A new uprising?

Post by Milo » Wed Jan 10, 2018 6:54 pm

Doc wrote:
Wed Jan 10, 2018 4:35 pm
Milo wrote:
Wed Jan 10, 2018 12:42 pm
Human soldiers will soon be as obsolete as horse cavalry.

Learn the lesson of Sphacteria:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of ... Sphacteria
If Humans are no longer needed will they even be in the loop?
I think AI will eliminate that fairly soon too.

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Doc
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Re: What is going on in Iran - A new uprising?

Post by Doc » Wed Jan 10, 2018 7:05 pm

Milo wrote:
Wed Jan 10, 2018 6:54 pm
Doc wrote:
Wed Jan 10, 2018 4:35 pm
Milo wrote:
Wed Jan 10, 2018 12:42 pm
Human soldiers will soon be as obsolete as horse cavalry.

Learn the lesson of Sphacteria:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of ... Sphacteria
If Humans are no longer needed will they even be in the loop?
I think AI will eliminate that fairly soon too.
Well I guess we have solved all the world's problems !!! IE No people, No problem
“The further a society drifts from truth the more it will hate those who speak it.” … George Orwell

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Milo
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Re: What is going on in Iran - A new uprising?

Post by Milo » Wed Jan 10, 2018 10:41 pm

Doc wrote:
Wed Jan 10, 2018 7:05 pm
Milo wrote:
Wed Jan 10, 2018 6:54 pm
Doc wrote:
Wed Jan 10, 2018 4:35 pm
Milo wrote:
Wed Jan 10, 2018 12:42 pm
Human soldiers will soon be as obsolete as horse cavalry.

Learn the lesson of Sphacteria:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of ... Sphacteria
If Humans are no longer needed will they even be in the loop?
I think AI will eliminate that fairly soon too.
Well I guess we have solved all the world's problems !!! IE No people, No problem
Could be more people: the ones who don't die because robots are fighting instead.

At Sphacteria the Spartans reportedly raged against the Athenians, not fighting like men. Indeed, they fought like cowards, and won a victory that pretty much everyone considered impossible, precisely because the Spartans were so tough.

I am also indebted to whoever in the old forum told me about Col Boyd. His coining of the term OODA loops and it's application to warfare is a brilliant conceptualization.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Bo ... trategist)

The fastest loop, not the toughest fighter, typically wins. Nothing can execute faster than AI controlled robots.

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