‘Less Legitimate’ Nations Shun Authoritarianism?

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Doc
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Re: ‘Less Legitimate’ Nations Shun Authoritarianism?

Post by Doc » Sun Jan 09, 2022 5:04 pm

neverfail wrote:
Sun Jan 09, 2022 2:13 pm
SteveFoerster wrote:
Sun Jan 09, 2022 11:49 am

However, I might suggest that in the U.S. the corruption is high enough up that ordinary people don't see it day-to-day. You don't have the bribe a government clerk to do his or her job and give you a permit, for example. But looking at the net worth of the average member of Congress over time, and seeing how it increases wildly out of proportion to that of the average American, lets you know they're not just clipping coupons and pinching pennies.
A member of your House of Representatives has to stand for re-election once every two years and that involves costs. Not being a multi-billionaire his/her temptation would likely be to put himself into hock to monied corporate interests to obtain the needed fiscal sponsorship; knowing that later on he is likely to be called upon to defend/promote his sponsor's interest even against the wider best interests of the country at large. I believe that it was by selectively assembling the votes of enough Congressional Lower House members on the payola of the pharmacutical corporations like that they were able to scupper President Bill Clintons proposed bill for universal basic health and hospital cover for all Americans similar to those operating in Canada and Australia.

Knowing how I need to serve two or even more masters and the potential stresses and conflicts of interest that might entail; were I a member of your Congress I think that I would want to be well renumerated for my pains also.
THey could solve that in a heartbeat. Require politicians to reject campaign contribution from people that cannot vote for them,AND make it illegal for politicians to invest in stocks outside of broad spectrum investment funds.
“"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros

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Sertorio
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Re: ‘Less Legitimate’ Nations Shun Authoritarianism?

Post by Sertorio » Mon Jan 10, 2022 2:47 am

Milo wrote:
Sun Jan 09, 2022 4:17 pm
Sertorio wrote:
Sun Jan 09, 2022 3:21 pm
Milo wrote:
Sun Jan 09, 2022 3:16 pm
Sertorio wrote:
Sun Jan 09, 2022 11:45 am
Milo wrote:
Sun Jan 09, 2022 11:15 am
I do not know of any examples of popular support for communism. In every case, communism took power through ruthless guerrilla warfare.

In other words, communism appeals to control freaks and the paranoid, as does its twin, fascism.
Cuba
I would ask if you were out of your mind but propagandists have to say crazy things a lot.

The extensive and violent guerrilla warfare that overthrew Batista is exhaustively documented and denied by nobody, except you, including Castro’s followers.
And how did that guerrilla win? By having overwhelming popular support...
Guerrillas never have overwhelming popular support, that’s why they are guerrillas.

Neither Castro ever won an election.
Guerrillas can never win without popular support. To survive they must live in the middle of the population and be accepted by them. Otherwise they would soon be destroyed by the army. Che Guevara could teach you a few things about guerrilla warfare...

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SteveFoerster
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Re: ‘Less Legitimate’ Nations Shun Authoritarianism?

Post by SteveFoerster » Mon Jan 10, 2022 7:56 am

Sertorio wrote:
Mon Jan 10, 2022 2:47 am
Milo wrote:
Sun Jan 09, 2022 4:17 pm
Sertorio wrote:
Sun Jan 09, 2022 3:21 pm
Milo wrote:
Sun Jan 09, 2022 3:16 pm
Sertorio wrote:
Sun Jan 09, 2022 11:45 am
Milo wrote:
Sun Jan 09, 2022 11:15 am
I do not know of any examples of popular support for communism. In every case, communism took power through ruthless guerrilla warfare.

In other words, communism appeals to control freaks and the paranoid, as does its twin, fascism.
Cuba
I would ask if you were out of your mind but propagandists have to say crazy things a lot.

The extensive and violent guerrilla warfare that overthrew Batista is exhaustively documented and denied by nobody, except you, including Castro’s followers.
And how did that guerrilla win? By having overwhelming popular support...
Guerrillas never have overwhelming popular support, that’s why they are guerrillas.

Neither Castro ever won an election.
Guerrillas can never win without popular support. To survive they must live in the middle of the population and be accepted by them. Otherwise they would soon be destroyed by the army. Che Guevara could teach you a few things about guerrilla warfare...
The Castros were able to seize power because Batista was a dictator and a lot of Cubans figured anyone had to be better. And they weren't crazy to hope for that, even though they turned out to be wrong.
Writer, technologist, educator, gadfly.
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Sertorio
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Re: ‘Less Legitimate’ Nations Shun Authoritarianism?

Post by Sertorio » Mon Jan 10, 2022 10:53 am

SteveFoerster wrote:
Mon Jan 10, 2022 7:56 am
Sertorio wrote:
Mon Jan 10, 2022 2:47 am
Milo wrote:
Sun Jan 09, 2022 4:17 pm
Sertorio wrote:
Sun Jan 09, 2022 3:21 pm
Milo wrote:
Sun Jan 09, 2022 3:16 pm
Sertorio wrote:
Sun Jan 09, 2022 11:45 am


Cuba
I would ask if you were out of your mind but propagandists have to say crazy things a lot.

The extensive and violent guerrilla warfare that overthrew Batista is exhaustively documented and denied by nobody, except you, including Castro’s followers.
And how did that guerrilla win? By having overwhelming popular support...
Guerrillas never have overwhelming popular support, that’s why they are guerrillas.

Neither Castro ever won an election.
Guerrillas can never win without popular support. To survive they must live in the middle of the population and be accepted by them. Otherwise they would soon be destroyed by the army. Che Guevara could teach you a few things about guerrilla warfare...
The Castros were able to seize power because Batista was a dictator and a lot of Cubans figured anyone had to be better. And they weren't crazy to hope for that, even though they turned out to be wrong.
Milo said that he "did not know of any examples of popular support for communism", and I have proven that Cuba was one such case. Did Cubans knew that Castro favoured communism? Some of them maybe didn't know, but the struggle lasted long enough for most Cubans to have realized what Castro wanted.

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Milo
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Re: ‘Less Legitimate’ Nations Shun Authoritarianism?

Post by Milo » Mon Jan 10, 2022 11:35 am

Sertorio wrote:
Mon Jan 10, 2022 10:53 am
SteveFoerster wrote:
Mon Jan 10, 2022 7:56 am
Sertorio wrote:
Mon Jan 10, 2022 2:47 am
Milo wrote:
Sun Jan 09, 2022 4:17 pm
Sertorio wrote:
Sun Jan 09, 2022 3:21 pm
Milo wrote:
Sun Jan 09, 2022 3:16 pm


I would ask if you were out of your mind but propagandists have to say crazy things a lot.

The extensive and violent guerrilla warfare that overthrew Batista is exhaustively documented and denied by nobody, except you, including Castro’s followers.
And how did that guerrilla win? By having overwhelming popular support...
Guerrillas never have overwhelming popular support, that’s why they are guerrillas.

Neither Castro ever won an election.
Guerrillas can never win without popular support. To survive they must live in the middle of the population and be accepted by them. Otherwise they would soon be destroyed by the army. Che Guevara could teach you a few things about guerrilla warfare...
The Castros were able to seize power because Batista was a dictator and a lot of Cubans figured anyone had to be better. And they weren't crazy to hope for that, even though they turned out to be wrong.
Milo said that he "did not know of any examples of popular support for communism", and I have proven that Cuba was one such case. Did Cubans knew that Castro favoured communism? Some of them maybe didn't know, but the struggle lasted long enough for most Cubans to have realized what Castro wanted.
How did you prove that?

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Sertorio
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Re: ‘Less Legitimate’ Nations Shun Authoritarianism?

Post by Sertorio » Mon Jan 10, 2022 11:40 am

Milo wrote:
Mon Jan 10, 2022 11:35 am
Sertorio wrote:
Mon Jan 10, 2022 10:53 am
SteveFoerster wrote:
Mon Jan 10, 2022 7:56 am
Sertorio wrote:
Mon Jan 10, 2022 2:47 am
Milo wrote:
Sun Jan 09, 2022 4:17 pm
Sertorio wrote:
Sun Jan 09, 2022 3:21 pm


And how did that guerrilla win? By having overwhelming popular support...
Guerrillas never have overwhelming popular support, that’s why they are guerrillas.

Neither Castro ever won an election.
Guerrillas can never win without popular support. To survive they must live in the middle of the population and be accepted by them. Otherwise they would soon be destroyed by the army. Che Guevara could teach you a few things about guerrilla warfare...
The Castros were able to seize power because Batista was a dictator and a lot of Cubans figured anyone had to be better. And they weren't crazy to hope for that, even though they turned out to be wrong.
Milo said that he "did not know of any examples of popular support for communism", and I have proven that Cuba was one such case. Did Cubans knew that Castro favoured communism? Some of them maybe didn't know, but the struggle lasted long enough for most Cubans to have realized what Castro wanted.
How did you prove that?
I cannot prove it, but it is very likely. Far too many peasants and students were helping the guerrilla for them not to have heard from the guerrilleros themselves what changes they wanted to bring to Cuba.

neverfail
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Re: ‘Less Legitimate’ Nations Shun Authoritarianism?

Post by neverfail » Mon Jan 10, 2022 12:18 pm

SteveFoerster wrote:
Mon Jan 10, 2022 7:56 am
The Castros were able to seize power because Batista was a dictator and a lot of Cubans figured anyone had to be better. And they weren't crazy to hope for that, even though they turned out to be wrong.
Beginning in 1954 as a small guerilla-insurgent band in a mountainous corner of Cuba Castro and followers did not "seize power" (as if they had effortlesly staged a sudden coup the way you seem to allude to) but had to spend years of privation in the jungle: building up their support - and without any source of support from any foreign state. All of then time Batista had a modern army at his disposal whereas without formal military training Castro and his band would have had to learn the art of warfare hands-on. They then needed to spend years gradually building up their support and membership from within Cuba. The odds were stacked against them yet in 1959 they grown large enough as a military force to be able to fight the pitched battle of Santa Clara and win. I am not advocating the sort of regime that Castro subsequently carved out in Cuba but if there is such a thing as deserving to be in power then I would argue that the Castros earned that right.

neverfail
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Re: ‘Less Legitimate’ Nations Shun Authoritarianism?

Post by neverfail » Mon Jan 10, 2022 12:27 pm

Sertorio wrote:
Mon Jan 10, 2022 11:40 am
I cannot prove it, but it is very likely. Far too many peasants and students were helping the guerrilla for them not to have heard from the guerrilleros themselves what changes they wanted to bring to Cuba.
I have noticed that Communism always seemed to thrive best in countries, among peoples, who were/are long accustomed to authoritarian and autocratic rule and therefore conditioned (or at least resigned) to it. Cuba seems to have been a case in point. They were not overthrowing any well established, reputable system of democracy but replacing one dictatorship with allegedly a better one.

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Milo
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Re: ‘Less Legitimate’ Nations Shun Authoritarianism?

Post by Milo » Mon Jan 10, 2022 1:59 pm

Sertorio wrote:
Mon Jan 10, 2022 11:40 am
Milo wrote:
Mon Jan 10, 2022 11:35 am
Sertorio wrote:
Mon Jan 10, 2022 10:53 am
SteveFoerster wrote:
Mon Jan 10, 2022 7:56 am
Sertorio wrote:
Mon Jan 10, 2022 2:47 am
Milo wrote:
Sun Jan 09, 2022 4:17 pm


Guerrillas never have overwhelming popular support, that’s why they are guerrillas.

Neither Castro ever won an election.
Guerrillas can never win without popular support. To survive they must live in the middle of the population and be accepted by them. Otherwise they would soon be destroyed by the army. Che Guevara could teach you a few things about guerrilla warfare...
The Castros were able to seize power because Batista was a dictator and a lot of Cubans figured anyone had to be better. And they weren't crazy to hope for that, even though they turned out to be wrong.
Milo said that he "did not know of any examples of popular support for communism", and I have proven that Cuba was one such case. Did Cubans knew that Castro favoured communism? Some of them maybe didn't know, but the struggle lasted long enough for most Cubans to have realized what Castro wanted.
How did you prove that?
I cannot prove it, but it is very likely. Far too many peasants and students were helping the guerrilla for them not to have heard from the guerrilleros themselves what changes they wanted to bring to Cuba.
You said you did prove it.

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