‘Less Legitimate’ Nations Shun Authoritarianism?

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Sertorio
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Re: ‘Less Legitimate’ Nations Shun Authoritarianism?

Post by Sertorio » Sun Jan 09, 2022 2:45 am

cassowary wrote:
Sat Jan 08, 2022 10:58 pm
...in a capitalist system, there is bound to be inequality. Some will do well and prosper while others do not. It is those discontented who are susceptible to the blandishments of Socialism/Communism promising equality of wealth...
What you do not mention is that inequality is not just the result of a difference in skill or quality. More often than not it is the result of dishonesty, unfair play, twisting of rules, corruption, violence. And there is no way capitalism will ever be able to guarantee fairness. That's one of the main reasons why some people opt for socialism.

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cassowary
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Re: ‘Less Legitimate’ Nations Shun Authoritarianism?

Post by cassowary » Sun Jan 09, 2022 6:55 am

Sertorio wrote:
Sun Jan 09, 2022 2:45 am
cassowary wrote:
Sat Jan 08, 2022 10:58 pm
...in a capitalist system, there is bound to be inequality. Some will do well and prosper while others do not. It is those discontented who are susceptible to the blandishments of Socialism/Communism promising equality of wealth...
What you do not mention is that inequality is not just the result of a difference in skill or quality. More often than not it is the result of dishonesty, unfair play, twisting of rules, corruption, violence. And there is no way capitalism will ever be able to guarantee fairness. That's one of the main reasons why some people opt for socialism.
Most of the time, the difference is due to skill and motivation. In a first world country,, which we were not then, you get corruption and unfair play. But this is mostly untrue in a first world country.
The Imp :D

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Milo
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Re: ‘Less Legitimate’ Nations Shun Authoritarianism?

Post by Milo » Sun Jan 09, 2022 11:15 am

I do not know of any examples of popular support for communism. In every case, communism took power through ruthless guerrilla warfare.

In other words, communism appeals to control freaks and the paranoid, as does its twin, fascism.

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Sertorio
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Re: ‘Less Legitimate’ Nations Shun Authoritarianism?

Post by Sertorio » Sun Jan 09, 2022 11:45 am

Milo wrote:
Sun Jan 09, 2022 11:15 am
I do not know of any examples of popular support for communism. In every case, communism took power through ruthless guerrilla warfare.

In other words, communism appeals to control freaks and the paranoid, as does its twin, fascism.
Cuba

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SteveFoerster
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Re: ‘Less Legitimate’ Nations Shun Authoritarianism?

Post by SteveFoerster » Sun Jan 09, 2022 11:49 am

cassowary wrote:
Sun Jan 09, 2022 6:55 am
Sertorio wrote:
Sun Jan 09, 2022 2:45 am
cassowary wrote:
Sat Jan 08, 2022 10:58 pm
...in a capitalist system, there is bound to be inequality. Some will do well and prosper while others do not. It is those discontented who are susceptible to the blandishments of Socialism/Communism promising equality of wealth...
What you do not mention is that inequality is not just the result of a difference in skill or quality. More often than not it is the result of dishonesty, unfair play, twisting of rules, corruption, violence. And there is no way capitalism will ever be able to guarantee fairness. That's one of the main reasons why some people opt for socialism.
Most of the time, the difference is due to skill and motivation. In a first world country,, which we were not then, you get corruption and unfair play. But this is mostly untrue in a first world country.
Transparency International agrees with you: https://www.transparency.org/en/cpi/2020/index/nzl

However, I might suggest that in the U.S. the corruption is high enough up that ordinary people don't see it day-to-day. You don't have the bribe a government clerk to do his or her job and give you a permit, for example. But looking at the net worth of the average member of Congress over time, and seeing how it increases wildly out of proportion to that of the average American, lets you know they're not just clipping coupons and pinching pennies.
Writer, technologist, educator, gadfly.
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neverfail
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Re: ‘Less Legitimate’ Nations Shun Authoritarianism?

Post by neverfail » Sun Jan 09, 2022 2:13 pm

SteveFoerster wrote:
Sun Jan 09, 2022 11:49 am

However, I might suggest that in the U.S. the corruption is high enough up that ordinary people don't see it day-to-day. You don't have the bribe a government clerk to do his or her job and give you a permit, for example. But looking at the net worth of the average member of Congress over time, and seeing how it increases wildly out of proportion to that of the average American, lets you know they're not just clipping coupons and pinching pennies.
A member of your House of Representatives has to stand for re-election once every two years and that involves costs. Not being a multi-billionaire his/her temptation would likely be to put himself into hock to monied corporate interests to obtain the needed fiscal sponsorship; knowing that later on he is likely to be called upon to defend/promote his sponsor's interest even against the wider best interests of the country at large. I believe that it was by selectively assembling the votes of enough Congressional Lower House members on the payola of the pharmacutical corporations like that they were able to scupper President Bill Clintons proposed bill for universal basic health and hospital cover for all Americans similar to those operating in Canada and Australia.

Knowing how I need to serve two or even more masters and the potential stresses and conflicts of interest that might entail; were I a member of your Congress I think that I would want to be well renumerated for my pains also.

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Milo
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Re: ‘Less Legitimate’ Nations Shun Authoritarianism?

Post by Milo » Sun Jan 09, 2022 3:16 pm

Sertorio wrote:
Sun Jan 09, 2022 11:45 am
Milo wrote:
Sun Jan 09, 2022 11:15 am
I do not know of any examples of popular support for communism. In every case, communism took power through ruthless guerrilla warfare.

In other words, communism appeals to control freaks and the paranoid, as does its twin, fascism.
Cuba
I would ask if you were out of your mind but propagandists have to say crazy things a lot.

The extensive and violent guerrilla warfare that overthrew Batista is exhaustively documented and denied by nobody, except you, including Castro’s followers.

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Sertorio
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Re: ‘Less Legitimate’ Nations Shun Authoritarianism?

Post by Sertorio » Sun Jan 09, 2022 3:21 pm

Milo wrote:
Sun Jan 09, 2022 3:16 pm
Sertorio wrote:
Sun Jan 09, 2022 11:45 am
Milo wrote:
Sun Jan 09, 2022 11:15 am
I do not know of any examples of popular support for communism. In every case, communism took power through ruthless guerrilla warfare.

In other words, communism appeals to control freaks and the paranoid, as does its twin, fascism.
Cuba
I would ask if you were out of your mind but propagandists have to say crazy things a lot.

The extensive and violent guerrilla warfare that overthrew Batista is exhaustively documented and denied by nobody, except you, including Castro’s followers.
And how did that guerrilla win? By having overwhelming popular support...

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Milo
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Re: ‘Less Legitimate’ Nations Shun Authoritarianism?

Post by Milo » Sun Jan 09, 2022 4:17 pm

Sertorio wrote:
Sun Jan 09, 2022 3:21 pm
Milo wrote:
Sun Jan 09, 2022 3:16 pm
Sertorio wrote:
Sun Jan 09, 2022 11:45 am
Milo wrote:
Sun Jan 09, 2022 11:15 am
I do not know of any examples of popular support for communism. In every case, communism took power through ruthless guerrilla warfare.

In other words, communism appeals to control freaks and the paranoid, as does its twin, fascism.
Cuba
I would ask if you were out of your mind but propagandists have to say crazy things a lot.

The extensive and violent guerrilla warfare that overthrew Batista is exhaustively documented and denied by nobody, except you, including Castro’s followers.
And how did that guerrilla win? By having overwhelming popular support...
Guerrillas never have overwhelming popular support, that’s why they are guerrillas.

Neither Castro ever won an election.

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Doc
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Re: ‘Less Legitimate’ Nations Shun Authoritarianism?

Post by Doc » Sun Jan 09, 2022 5:00 pm

SteveFoerster wrote:
Fri Jan 07, 2022 6:59 pm
Milo wrote:
Fri Jan 07, 2022 6:30 pm
SteveFoerster wrote:
Fri Jan 07, 2022 4:38 pm
neverfail wrote:
Fri Jan 07, 2022 1:49 pm
SteveFoerster wrote:
Fri Jan 07, 2022 1:37 pm
neverfail wrote:
Fri Jan 07, 2022 1:59 am
Cassowalry: will you kindly pull your head out of your real anal passage and face up to which side of politics in the US is the real threat to civil rights and liberties.
Both are.
Please explain!
You know how Republicans talk about fiscal responsibility, but then when they're in power they spend money like drunken sailors just like the Democrats do?

Well, Democrats talk about civil rights, ending police brutality and militarisation, freedom of expression, and all that, but then when they're in power they just never seem to get around to doing anything about it. Marriage equality only came about because of a Supreme Court decision. Backing off from the drug was has only come about because of ballot initiatives.

(I'll concede that LBJ did some good here, but that was nearly seventy years ago. The only significant civil rights legislation since then was the ADA and that was signed by a Republican.)
But what about the ACA?
What about it? That was a giant subsidy to health insurance corporations. It certainly had nothing to do either with civil rights or civil liberties.
Definite;y big health insurance companies and Big Pharma as well. Who were promised by the ACA that the federal Government would pay the full price for any drugs it bought. Dispite the US government being the biggest purchaser of drugs in the world, and therefore the most likely to get a huge discount.
“"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros

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