Japan off the rails?

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neverfail
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Japan off the rails?

Post by neverfail » Sun Jan 02, 2022 2:55 am

https://asiatimes.com/2021/12/japan-pay ... wn-market/

The world’s third richest country is facing rising poverty – and its associated ills
This country was in the 1960's the economic wonder of Asia and by the 1970's the wonder of the world. So how did this once energetic, vibrant country ever sink into its present impasse?

Japan gives every impression of being a spent force.

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Sertorio
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Re: Japan off the rails?

Post by Sertorio » Sun Jan 02, 2022 3:02 am

neverfail wrote:
Sun Jan 02, 2022 2:55 am
https://asiatimes.com/2021/12/japan-pay ... wn-market/

The world’s third richest country is facing rising poverty – and its associated ills
This country was in the 1960's the economic wonder of Asia and by the 1970's the wonder of the world. So how did this once energetic, vibrant country ever sink into its present impasse?

Japan gives every impression of being a spent force.
Being totally dominated by the US certainly does not help... Countries, like people, need a bit pride and dignity, something difficult to achieve when you are subjugated...

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SteveFoerster
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Re: Japan off the rails?

Post by SteveFoerster » Sun Jan 02, 2022 10:03 am

neverfail wrote:
Sun Jan 02, 2022 2:55 am
https://asiatimes.com/2021/12/japan-pay ... wn-market/

The world’s third richest country is facing rising poverty – and its associated ills
This country was in the 1960's the economic wonder of Asia and by the 1970's the wonder of the world. So how did this once energetic, vibrant country ever sink into its present impasse?

Japan gives every impression of being a spent force.
Their economic central planning was too heavy-handed, leading to decades of stagnation. The MITI approach gave them a push, but once they were rolling in the '80s it became a drag. Plus their demographic are terrible.
Writer, technologist, educator, gadfly.
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Sertorio
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Re: Japan off the rails?

Post by Sertorio » Sun Jan 02, 2022 10:28 am

SteveFoerster wrote:
Sun Jan 02, 2022 10:03 am
neverfail wrote:
Sun Jan 02, 2022 2:55 am
https://asiatimes.com/2021/12/japan-pay ... wn-market/

The world’s third richest country is facing rising poverty – and its associated ills
This country was in the 1960's the economic wonder of Asia and by the 1970's the wonder of the world. So how did this once energetic, vibrant country ever sink into its present impasse?

Japan gives every impression of being a spent force.
Their economic central planning was too heavy-handed, leading to decades of stagnation. The MITI approach gave them a push, but once they were rolling in the '80s it became a drag. Plus their demographic are terrible.
The MITI was Japan's form of central planning, so you contradict yourself...

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SteveFoerster
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Re: Japan off the rails?

Post by SteveFoerster » Sun Jan 02, 2022 11:42 am

This is another example of how your penchant for selective highlighting is a form of lying.

I said a push to start, then a drag. Once their economy was rebuilt enough to benefit from creativity, they suffered, because their industrial policy bureaucratised it out of existence.
Writer, technologist, educator, gadfly.
President of New World University: https://newworld.ac

neverfail
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Re: Japan off the rails?

Post by neverfail » Sun Jan 02, 2022 2:37 pm

Thanks fellows for your contributions so far.

I do not know the reasons and am seeking answers. Japan has been a good trading partner for and friend of my country so I would like to see it prosper more.

Post World War Two Japan's fortunes seems to have gone through 3 or 4 phases of evolution. After American post-war occupation ended in 1951 and national soverignty restored Japan underwent a decade of recovery. Then from about 1960 onward, having discovered the utility of international trade, it's economy really took off recording annual growth rates not unlike those of the PRC in more recent memory. in the 1980's decade it entered bubble economy mode with warning signs of a crash to come (which no one seemed to take note of). The (stock market and property price) crash came in 1989 and the country has been marooned in stagnation mode ever since.
................................................................................................................................

Sertorio, true to form you mention "American domination" but did it ever occur to you that it was precisely because of an American backed global web of international agreements on free trade (known as GATT - the General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade: co-founded by the USA and UK in 1944) that Japan was able to do it? It was the American willingness to forgive former WW2 enemies and include them in the GATT open markets network that permitted both western Germany and Japan to revive and prosper via international trade (combined, of course, with the propensity for hard work and enterprise that both nationalities are, or were, well endowed with). The USA to this day remains a top external market for surplus products of both countries along with the prime investment destination for their trade surplusses . If the USA seems somewhat dominant in the world at large over the past 7 decades I suggest that it is more because of this kind of enticing "soft power" rather than through your vision of (Soviet Union style/) force of arms and strong arm diplomacy. For someone who claims an academic degree in economics your apparent ignorence of this long lived feature of our familar modern world seems profound.

By the way: GATT has in more recent times been renamed the World Trade Organisation (or WTO).

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Sertorio
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Re: Japan off the rails?

Post by Sertorio » Sun Jan 02, 2022 3:01 pm

neverfail wrote:
Sun Jan 02, 2022 2:37 pm
Thanks fellows for your contributions so far.

I do not know the reasons and am seeking answers. Japan has been a good trading partner for and friend of my country so I would like to see it prosper more.

Post World War Two Japan's fortunes seems to have gone through 3 or 4 phases of evolution. After American post-war occupation ended in 1951 and national soverignty restored Japan underwent a decade of recovery. Then from about 1960 onward, having discovered the utility of international trade, it's economy really took off recording annual growth rates not unlike those of the PRC in more recent memory. in the 1980's decade it entered bubble economy mode with warning signs of a crash to come (which no one seemed to take note of). The (stock market and property price) crash came in 1989 and the country has been marooned in stagnation mode ever since.
................................................................................................................................

Sertorio, true to form you mention "American domination" but did it ever occur to you that it was precisely because of an American backed global web of international agreements on free trade (known as GATT - the General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade: co-founded by the USA and UK in 1944) that Japan was able to do it? It was the American willingness to forgive former WW2 enemies and include them in the GATT open markets network that permitted both western Germany and Japan to revive and prosper via international trade (combined, of course, with the propensity for hard work and enterprise that both nationalities are, or were, well endowed with). The USA to this day remains a top external market for surplus products of both countries along with the prime investment destination for their trade surplusses . If the USA seems somewhat dominant in the world at large over the past 7 decades I suggest that it is more because of this kind of enticing "soft power" rather than through your vision of (Soviet Union style/) force of arms and strong arm diplomacy. For someone who claims an academic degree in economics your apparent ignorence of this long lived feature of our familar modern world seems profound.

By the way: GATT has in more recent times been renamed the World Trade Organisation (or WTO).
But the fact is that the people of Okinawa have for years demanded the withdrawal of US troops from the island, and neither the US nor the submissive Japanese government have paid any attention to that persistent demand. Not bad for "soft power"...

neverfail
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Re: Japan off the rails?

Post by neverfail » Sun Jan 02, 2022 10:05 pm

Sertorio wrote:
Sun Jan 02, 2022 3:01 pm
neverfail wrote:
Sun Jan 02, 2022 2:37 pm
Thanks fellows for your contributions so far.

I do not know the reasons and am seeking answers. Japan has been a good trading partner for and friend of my country so I would like to see it prosper more.

Post World War Two Japan's fortunes seems to have gone through 3 or 4 phases of evolution. After American post-war occupation ended in 1951 and national soverignty restored Japan underwent a decade of recovery. Then from about 1960 onward, having discovered the utility of international trade, it's economy really took off recording annual growth rates not unlike those of the PRC in more recent memory. in the 1980's decade it entered bubble economy mode with warning signs of a crash to come (which no one seemed to take note of). The (stock market and property price) crash came in 1989 and the country has been marooned in stagnation mode ever since.
................................................................................................................................

Sertorio, true to form you mention "American domination" but did it ever occur to you that it was precisely because of an American backed global web of international agreements on free trade (known as GATT - the General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade: co-founded by the USA and UK in 1944) that Japan was able to do it? It was the American willingness to forgive former WW2 enemies and include them in the GATT open markets network that permitted both western Germany and Japan to revive and prosper via international trade (combined, of course, with the propensity for hard work and enterprise that both nationalities are, or were, well endowed with). The USA to this day remains a top external market for surplus products of both countries along with the prime investment destination for their trade surplusses . If the USA seems somewhat dominant in the world at large over the past 7 decades I suggest that it is more because of this kind of enticing "soft power" rather than through your vision of (Soviet Union style/) force of arms and strong arm diplomacy. For someone who claims an academic degree in economics your apparent ignorence of this long lived feature of our familar modern world seems profound.

By the way: GATT has in more recent times been renamed the World Trade Organisation (or WTO).
But the fact is that the people of Okinawa have for years demanded the withdrawal of US troops from the island, and neither the US nor the submissive Japanese government have paid any attention to that persistent demand. Not bad for "soft power"...
Weighing up the massive amount of lasting good the USA acheived worldwide (compare it with the pre-war scenario of mutually exclusive, mutually hostile protectionist trading blocs; economic depression and poverty) against your above interjection re. the unfilfullled wish of the Okinawans to be rid of the US military; I view the latter as being petty minded irrelevant.

Though it may not seem so obvious to you even your own poor and backward country Portugal belatedly benefitted from the across-the-board abolition of some trade barriers and relaxation of others that flowed from GATT-WTO initiave (and would likely have gained even more had it woken up to which way the wind was blowing earlier :D ).

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Sertorio
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Re: Japan off the rails?

Post by Sertorio » Mon Jan 03, 2022 3:33 am

neverfail wrote:
Sun Jan 02, 2022 10:05 pm
Sertorio wrote:
Sun Jan 02, 2022 3:01 pm
neverfail wrote:
Sun Jan 02, 2022 2:37 pm
Thanks fellows for your contributions so far.

I do not know the reasons and am seeking answers. Japan has been a good trading partner for and friend of my country so I would like to see it prosper more.

Post World War Two Japan's fortunes seems to have gone through 3 or 4 phases of evolution. After American post-war occupation ended in 1951 and national soverignty restored Japan underwent a decade of recovery. Then from about 1960 onward, having discovered the utility of international trade, it's economy really took off recording annual growth rates not unlike those of the PRC in more recent memory. in the 1980's decade it entered bubble economy mode with warning signs of a crash to come (which no one seemed to take note of). The (stock market and property price) crash came in 1989 and the country has been marooned in stagnation mode ever since.
................................................................................................................................

Sertorio, true to form you mention "American domination" but did it ever occur to you that it was precisely because of an American backed global web of international agreements on free trade (known as GATT - the General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade: co-founded by the USA and UK in 1944) that Japan was able to do it? It was the American willingness to forgive former WW2 enemies and include them in the GATT open markets network that permitted both western Germany and Japan to revive and prosper via international trade (combined, of course, with the propensity for hard work and enterprise that both nationalities are, or were, well endowed with). The USA to this day remains a top external market for surplus products of both countries along with the prime investment destination for their trade surplusses . If the USA seems somewhat dominant in the world at large over the past 7 decades I suggest that it is more because of this kind of enticing "soft power" rather than through your vision of (Soviet Union style/) force of arms and strong arm diplomacy. For someone who claims an academic degree in economics your apparent ignorence of this long lived feature of our familar modern world seems profound.

By the way: GATT has in more recent times been renamed the World Trade Organisation (or WTO).
But the fact is that the people of Okinawa have for years demanded the withdrawal of US troops from the island, and neither the US nor the submissive Japanese government have paid any attention to that persistent demand. Not bad for "soft power"...
Weighing up the massive amount of lasting good the USA acheived worldwide (compare it with the pre-war scenario of mutually exclusive, mutually hostile protectionist trading blocs; economic depression and poverty) against your above interjection re. the unfilfullled wish of the Okinawans to be rid of the US military; I view the latter as being petty minded irrelevant.

Though it may not seem so obvious to you even your own poor and backward country Portugal belatedly benefitted from the across-the-board abolition of some trade barriers and relaxation of others that flowed from GATT-WTO initiave (and would likely have gained even more had it woken up to which way the wind was blowing earlier :D ).
I notice that for you the democratically expressed will of a people is "petty minded and irrelevant"... Not very reassuring...

As to my "poor and backward country", I would like to point out to you our quality of life is much higher than in most developed countries, that we are one of the safest countries in the world, and that I wouldn't change Portugal for any of the countries you so admire... Yes, we have benefited from freer trade, just like every other country, but free trade is no longer defended by the US, which has imposed trade restrictions on scores of countries around the world.

neverfail
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Re: Japan off the rails?

Post by neverfail » Mon Jan 03, 2022 3:02 pm

Sertorio wrote:
Mon Jan 03, 2022 3:33 am

I notice that for you the democratically expressed will of a people is "petty minded and irrelevant"... Not very reassuring...
Okinawans do not vote at US elections.
As to my "poor and backward country", I would like to point out to you our quality of life is much higher than in most developed countries, that we are one of the safest countries in the world, and that I wouldn't change Portugal for any of the countries you so admire... Yes, we have benefited from freer trade, just like every other country, but free trade is no longer defended by the US, which has imposed trade restrictions on scores of countries around the world.
Quite apart to the sanctions that the US has imposed upon a select group of rogue states (not always but still often for good reasons) the US never went as far as it might have with trade liberalisation either. Here in Australia (for instance) our farmers produce a range of food products more cost effectively than their US counterparts and if allowed could supply them to US consumers more cheaply. The point is that we (an American ally of long standing) are severely restricted by US quotas and outright bans from doing so. It reflects the strength of the farm lobby over there whose influence on Congress (in particular) has kept the US wedded to protectionism in the dimension of food production.

Having said that the US post-War policy of progressively opening up its home markets to competition from abroad at the level of manufactures had a very posative effect in lifting the world out of what would otherwise have been a long post-war economic slump and especially with the rec9overy and reconstruction of the former Axis powers, Germany, Italy and Japan.

In the case of the last: Japan over the decade 1951-60 had rebuilt itself to the point where (under a limited free-trade treaty the Australian government had the foresight to sign with the Japanese government in 1955) Japan in 1960 displaced Great Britain, traditionally our biggest overseas trading partner, as our premier export outlet. The following year Japan also superceded the UK as our biggest source of imports as well. From that point on the Australia-Japan economic partnership went from strength to strength. (That was probably just as well for us as 1961 was the year in which the US government first announced its intention to join the trading bloc on mainland Europe now called the EU: which, as everyone knew was destined to deny us access to our traditional biggest market for farm produce.)

The point is that from 1960 onward growing amounts of Australian coking coal, iron ore and other raw materials were being shipped up to japan to be transformed into the ferrous metals that went into all of those Toyota, Mazda and Nissan motor vehicles that Japan substquently sold overseas on a variety of export markets - the biggest of all being the US market. It was the willingness of the Americans to keep their home market open to external competition despite loss of sales by their home brands (general Motors, Ford & etc) that allowed it to work.

The growth of the Australia-Japan export trade in metal ores and energy in a "flow-on:" resposnse to growing Japanese export sales elsewhere represents only one of a multiplicity of benefits nations worldwide gained from the multiplier effect ensuing from US sponsorship of the GATT - WTO regime of international trading. In our case I would guesstimate that Australia gained a lot more mileage out of our trade in minerals and energy with Japan than we would have gained had the US been more generous in opening its markets wide to our food exports by a multiple of several times. And that was only Japan: I have not yet even mentioned the likes of South Korea and China.

With the rise of China as an international trader America's GATT acheivement might now look like a fading past glory but had it not happened we would all by now be much worse off - just like before the Second World War.

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