Now It's Russia Resorting To Ultimata...

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Sertorio
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Now It's Russia Resorting To Ultimata...

Post by Sertorio » Mon Dec 20, 2021 4:38 am

What will Russia do if US/NATO shoots down its security proposals?
20 Dec, 2021 12:10
https://www.rt.com/russia/543751-us-nat ... proposals/

Russia submitted two documents last week to the United States as an offer of long-term security guarantees – a draft US-Russia treaty and an agreement with NATO. They are written in a language that borders on ultimatum.

That’s according to Moscow’s leading foreign policy expert, Fyodor Lukyanov, who is considered close to the Kremlin’s worldview and is known to advise senior officials. Lukyanov believes the West is unlikely to accept Russia’s demands because doing so would be politically impossible.

The draft treaty contains an explicit demand: “The United States of America shall undertake to prevent further eastward expansion of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization and deny accession to the alliance of the states of the former Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.” It also essentially rules out any bilateral military cooperation between the US and members of the former Soviet Union which are not part of NATO.

The text of the draft agreement proposal to NATO contains an obligation on the bloc to exclude further expansion, including by the accession of Ukraine or any other states, as well as the explicit statement that NATO “shall not conduct any military activity on the territory of Ukraine or other states of Eastern Europe, South Caucasus and Central Asia.”

There is also a separate clause that requires both sides to limit activities which could be perceived as threatening security: “The parties shall refrain from deploying their armed forces and armaments, including in the framework of international organizations, military alliances or coalitions, in the areas where such deployment could be perceived by the other party as a threat to its national security, with the exception of such deployment within the national territories of the parties.”

The latter exception means that NATO cannot conduct military activities close to Russian borders, while Russia has the right to do what it sees fit on parts of its territory that border NATO.

This reflects the stance and the demands that Russia has been voicing for years, but more insistently so in the past few weeks. The question is: Why would you propose a draft like that? It’s hard to imagine it could even launch a dialogue with the Western counterparts, let alone be adopted.

From the US and NATO’s perspective, that would mean capitulating to Moscow, which is politically unacceptable. Moreover, Washington and the EU countries see no reason why they should agree to overhaul the post-Cold War European security system. To put it simply, there is no real threat, and Moscow probably understands that. So maybe they expect the West to publicly refuse, and later say that the offer was on the table and they didn’t take it. In other words, this would give the Kremlin free rein when it comes to reshaping the current system.

In that case, we will see more steps meant to demonstrate Russia’s determination to change the status quo no matter what the West has to say about it. The sheer scale of the proposed changes implies that simply accepting the refusal and leaving it be until the next round of talks is not an option. That would undermine the credibility of any further statements on the subject. So the question now is, what is Russia going to do should the West shoot down this proposal?
It seems obvious that Russia knows that its proposals are unacceptable to the US and NATO. Therefore presenting them is tantamount to issuing an ultimatum: you either satisfy our demands or next step may very well be taken by the Russian armed forces. For many years Russia has preferred to ignore US and NATO threats and sanctions, hoping that more clear-headed people would finally realize that nothing could be achieved by such threats or sanctions. Unfortunately the US has failed to realize that the balance of military power had shifted in Russia's favour, and that Russia would not be coerced. While it is doubtful Russia will invade the Ukraine, it is sure that any attack on the Donbass by the Ukraine will be answered with the full might of the Russian military power. And the US and NATO will be reduced to just watch it happen. Just like in 1914, stupidity is putting us all at risk...

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Sertorio
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Re: Now It's Russia Resorting To Ultimata...

Post by Sertorio » Mon Dec 20, 2021 4:22 pm

https://thesaker.is/russias-ultimatum-to-the-west/

UPDATE: according to the Russian media citing “diplomatic sources”, China has given her full support to the Russian demands. What that actually means or implies is unclear, but this is the first indication that the Russian ultimatum was coordinated with the Chinese and that China will have some kind of role to play in the next move of the Russians if the US rejects the Russian demands.
That's a game changer...

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Re: Now It's Russia Resorting To Ultimata...

Post by SteveFoerster » Mon Dec 20, 2021 6:00 pm

Sertorio wrote:
Mon Dec 20, 2021 4:22 pm
https://thesaker.is/russias-ultimatum-to-the-west/

UPDATE: according to the Russian media citing “diplomatic sources”, China has given her full support to the Russian demands. What that actually means or implies is unclear, but this is the first indication that the Russian ultimatum was coordinated with the Chinese and that China will have some kind of role to play in the next move of the Russians if the US rejects the Russian demands.
That's a game changer...
Hardly, considering everyone was already aware that they were rotating along the same axis.
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Re: Now It's Russia Resorting To Ultimata...

Post by Sertorio » Tue Dec 21, 2021 1:50 am

Under No Circumstances Will Russia Allow NATO Infrastructure in Ukraine and Georgia, Diplomat Says
https://sputniknews.com/20211221/contac ... 87411.html

Moscow previously warned Washington that it is waiting for an urgent answer, because the situation between the two sides continues to deteriorate.

The head of the Russian delegation at the Vienna talks, Konstantin Gavrilov, stated on Tuesday that an agreement on the security guarantee proposals made by Moscow is possible, as Russia and the US have already launched contacts, referring to the contact between Russian presidential aide Yuri Ushakov and US National Security Adviser Jake Sullivan.

He stressed that Russia won't allow the deployment of NATO infrastructure in Ukraine and Georgia.
I am indeed surprised. I had never heard, for many years, Russia being so assertive about what it would do if it feels its legitimate interests are at risk. I would advise the US and NATO not to make any of their usual mistakes...

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Re: Now It's Russia Resorting To Ultimata...

Post by SteveFoerster » Tue Dec 21, 2021 7:05 am

Sertorio wrote:
Tue Dec 21, 2021 1:50 am
Under No Circumstances Will Russia Allow NATO Infrastructure in Ukraine and Georgia, Diplomat Says
https://sputniknews.com/20211221/contac ... 87411.html

Moscow previously warned Washington that it is waiting for an urgent answer, because the situation between the two sides continues to deteriorate.

The head of the Russian delegation at the Vienna talks, Konstantin Gavrilov, stated on Tuesday that an agreement on the security guarantee proposals made by Moscow is possible, as Russia and the US have already launched contacts, referring to the contact between Russian presidential aide Yuri Ushakov and US National Security Adviser Jake Sullivan.

He stressed that Russia won't allow the deployment of NATO infrastructure in Ukraine and Georgia.
I am indeed surprised. I had never heard, for many years, Russia being so assertive about what it would do if it feels its legitimate interests are at risk. I would advise the US and NATO not to make any of their usual mistakes...
I realise you don't get this, but Russia has no legitimate interests in Ukraine or Georgia. They are different countries from Russia.
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Sertorio
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Re: Now It's Russia Resorting To Ultimata...

Post by Sertorio » Tue Dec 21, 2021 7:28 am

SteveFoerster wrote:
Tue Dec 21, 2021 7:05 am
Sertorio wrote:
Tue Dec 21, 2021 1:50 am
Under No Circumstances Will Russia Allow NATO Infrastructure in Ukraine and Georgia, Diplomat Says
https://sputniknews.com/20211221/contac ... 87411.html

Moscow previously warned Washington that it is waiting for an urgent answer, because the situation between the two sides continues to deteriorate.

The head of the Russian delegation at the Vienna talks, Konstantin Gavrilov, stated on Tuesday that an agreement on the security guarantee proposals made by Moscow is possible, as Russia and the US have already launched contacts, referring to the contact between Russian presidential aide Yuri Ushakov and US National Security Adviser Jake Sullivan.

He stressed that Russia won't allow the deployment of NATO infrastructure in Ukraine and Georgia.
I am indeed surprised. I had never heard, for many years, Russia being so assertive about what it would do if it feels its legitimate interests are at risk. I would advise the US and NATO not to make any of their usual mistakes...
I realise you don't get this, but Russia has no legitimate interests in Ukraine or Georgia. They are different countries from Russia.
They have legitimate interests as far as the defense and safety of Russia is concerned. The same reasons which made the US impose the withdrawal of Soviet missiles from Cuba in the 60's...

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Re: Now It's Russia Resorting To Ultimata...

Post by SteveFoerster » Tue Dec 21, 2021 7:41 am

Sertorio wrote:
Tue Dec 21, 2021 7:28 am
SteveFoerster wrote:
Tue Dec 21, 2021 7:05 am
Sertorio wrote:
Tue Dec 21, 2021 1:50 am
Under No Circumstances Will Russia Allow NATO Infrastructure in Ukraine and Georgia, Diplomat Says
https://sputniknews.com/20211221/contac ... 87411.html

Moscow previously warned Washington that it is waiting for an urgent answer, because the situation between the two sides continues to deteriorate.

The head of the Russian delegation at the Vienna talks, Konstantin Gavrilov, stated on Tuesday that an agreement on the security guarantee proposals made by Moscow is possible, as Russia and the US have already launched contacts, referring to the contact between Russian presidential aide Yuri Ushakov and US National Security Adviser Jake Sullivan.

He stressed that Russia won't allow the deployment of NATO infrastructure in Ukraine and Georgia.
I am indeed surprised. I had never heard, for many years, Russia being so assertive about what it would do if it feels its legitimate interests are at risk. I would advise the US and NATO not to make any of their usual mistakes...
I realise you don't get this, but Russia has no legitimate interests in Ukraine or Georgia. They are different countries from Russia.
They have legitimate interests as far as the defense and safety of Russia is concerned. The same reasons which made the US impose the withdrawal of Soviet missiles from Cuba in the 60's...
Do you believe the U.S. can legitimately tell Cuba what defence alliances it can join or weapons it can have?
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Re: Now It's Russia Resorting To Ultimata...

Post by Sertorio » Tue Dec 21, 2021 10:34 am

SteveFoerster wrote:
Tue Dec 21, 2021 7:41 am
Sertorio wrote:
Tue Dec 21, 2021 7:28 am
SteveFoerster wrote:
Tue Dec 21, 2021 7:05 am
Sertorio wrote:
Tue Dec 21, 2021 1:50 am
Under No Circumstances Will Russia Allow NATO Infrastructure in Ukraine and Georgia, Diplomat Says
https://sputniknews.com/20211221/contac ... 87411.html

Moscow previously warned Washington that it is waiting for an urgent answer, because the situation between the two sides continues to deteriorate.

The head of the Russian delegation at the Vienna talks, Konstantin Gavrilov, stated on Tuesday that an agreement on the security guarantee proposals made by Moscow is possible, as Russia and the US have already launched contacts, referring to the contact between Russian presidential aide Yuri Ushakov and US National Security Adviser Jake Sullivan.

He stressed that Russia won't allow the deployment of NATO infrastructure in Ukraine and Georgia.
I am indeed surprised. I had never heard, for many years, Russia being so assertive about what it would do if it feels its legitimate interests are at risk. I would advise the US and NATO not to make any of their usual mistakes...
I realise you don't get this, but Russia has no legitimate interests in Ukraine or Georgia. They are different countries from Russia.
They have legitimate interests as far as the defense and safety of Russia is concerned. The same reasons which made the US impose the withdrawal of Soviet missiles from Cuba in the 60's...
Do you believe the U.S. can legitimately tell Cuba what defence alliances it can join or weapons it can have?
Legitimately or not, that's what the US did in the 60's...

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Re: Now It's Russia Resorting To Ultimata...

Post by neverfail » Tue Dec 21, 2021 12:24 pm

Sertorio wrote:
Tue Dec 21, 2021 7:28 am
They have legitimate interests as far as the defense and safety of Russia is concerned. The same reasons which made the US impose the withdrawal of Soviet missiles from Cuba in the 60's...
"Defence and safety of Russia?" :lol:

Defence and safety from whom Sertorio? Russia is NOT a beleagured country. It is not under any threat from anybody; least of all from NATO.

NATO is NOT Nazi Germany in mid-1941. The sooner that both you and Putin dispense with your bullshit prejudices to the contrary and grasp thyat simple fact, the better.

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Sertorio
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Re: Now It's Russia Resorting To Ultimata...

Post by Sertorio » Tue Dec 21, 2021 2:45 pm

neverfail wrote:
Tue Dec 21, 2021 12:24 pm
Sertorio wrote:
Tue Dec 21, 2021 7:28 am
They have legitimate interests as far as the defense and safety of Russia is concerned. The same reasons which made the US impose the withdrawal of Soviet missiles from Cuba in the 60's...
"Defence and safety of Russia?" :lol:

Defence and safety from whom Sertorio? Russia is NOT a beleagured country. It is not under any threat from anybody; least of all from NATO.

NATO is NOT Nazi Germany in mid-1941. The sooner that both you and Putin dispense with your bullshit prejudices to the contrary and grasp thyat simple fact, the better.
Since 1990's the US and NATO have not stopped trying to besiege Russia and destroy its power. They almost succeeded with Yeltsin but Putin took care of that in no time. Since the US and NATO fail to understand that Russia no longer can be subdued, Russia is forced to tell them, very clearly, that either they stop threatening Russia's safety and interests, or Russia will have to use military power against them. What I admire is that Russia was willing to keep its cool for so long. Had I been in Putin's shoes and I assure you that the US and NATO would have received the lesson they deserve a long time ago. Your luck is that Putin is a statesman who knows how to keep his temper under control. But that seems now to be over...

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