Russia shows no sign of retreat on invading Ukraine

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Sertorio
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Re: Russia shows no sign of retreat on invading Ukraine

Post by Sertorio » Sun Jan 02, 2022 2:08 am

neverfail wrote:
Sun Jan 02, 2022 1:09 am
Steve, (to return to topic)....

..... would you know what interests the USA has at stake in Ukraine?

Considering how remote Ukraine is from the US and of how apparently worthless it is to your country in economic and geostrategic terms I am puzzled as to why any US administration would be unduly concerned about its fate.

Biden seems to have ruled out using US troops or other assets to fight for it so what else is there to deter Putin from sending in the Russian army in a war of conquest?
If I may try to answer that, what interests the US about the Ukraine is using it as a tool against Russia. The only thing the US presently wants is to preserve its status as the number one power on our planet. Because that status is threatened by both Russia and China, the US will do anything, literally anything, to defeat them. In the end it will come to war...

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SteveFoerster
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Re: Russia shows no sign of retreat on invading Ukraine

Post by SteveFoerster » Sun Jan 02, 2022 10:08 am

neverfail wrote:
Sun Jan 02, 2022 1:09 am
Steve, (to return to topic)....

..... would you know what interests the USA has at stake in Ukraine?

Considering how remote Ukraine is from the US and of how apparently worthless it is to your country in economic and geostrategic terms I am puzzled as to why any US administration would be unduly concerned about its fate.

Biden seems to have ruled out using US troops or other assets to fight for it so what else is there to deter Putin from sending in the Russian army in a war of conquest?
Honestly, I'm not sure. Russia is too economically moribund to be a threat to any country it doesn't border, so geopolitically one would think it would have made more sense for U.S. policymakers (within reason) to have placated Putin over the past twenty years as a bulwark against China. Since they didn't, I suppose either they knew something about Russia we don't that made that unworkable, or else they screwed up by needlessly keeping a Cold War mentality after its expiry date.
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Sertorio
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Re: Russia shows no sign of retreat on invading Ukraine

Post by Sertorio » Sun Jan 02, 2022 10:25 am

SteveFoerster wrote:
Sun Jan 02, 2022 10:08 am
neverfail wrote:
Sun Jan 02, 2022 1:09 am
Steve, (to return to topic)....

..... would you know what interests the USA has at stake in Ukraine?

Considering how remote Ukraine is from the US and of how apparently worthless it is to your country in economic and geostrategic terms I am puzzled as to why any US administration would be unduly concerned about its fate.

Biden seems to have ruled out using US troops or other assets to fight for it so what else is there to deter Putin from sending in the Russian army in a war of conquest?
Honestly, I'm not sure. Russia is too economically moribund to be a threat to any country it doesn't border, so geopolitically one would think it would have made more sense for U.S. policymakers (within reason) to have placated Putin over the past twenty years as a bulwark against China. Since they didn't, I suppose either they knew something about Russia we don't that made that unworkable, or else they screwed up by needlessly keeping a Cold War mentality after its expiry date.
How can someone say such a silly thing?!... Back it up with statistics, if you can...

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Re: Russia shows no sign of retreat on invading Ukraine

Post by SteveFoerster » Sun Jan 02, 2022 11:53 am

Sertorio wrote:
Sun Jan 02, 2022 10:25 am
SteveFoerster wrote:
Sun Jan 02, 2022 10:08 am
neverfail wrote:
Sun Jan 02, 2022 1:09 am
Steve, (to return to topic)....

..... would you know what interests the USA has at stake in Ukraine?

Considering how remote Ukraine is from the US and of how apparently worthless it is to your country in economic and geostrategic terms I am puzzled as to why any US administration would be unduly concerned about its fate.

Biden seems to have ruled out using US troops or other assets to fight for it so what else is there to deter Putin from sending in the Russian army in a war of conquest?
Honestly, I'm not sure. Russia is too economically moribund to be a threat to any country it doesn't border, so geopolitically one would think it would have made more sense for U.S. policymakers (within reason) to have placated Putin over the past twenty years as a bulwark against China. Since they didn't, I suppose either they knew something about Russia we don't that made that unworkable, or else they screwed up by needlessly keeping a Cold War mentality after its expiry date.
How can someone say such a silly thing?!... Back it up with statistics, if you can...
Russia's GDP is in between those of South Korea (which has 1/3 its population) and Australia (which has 1/6 its population).

Actually, forget countries. Russia's GDP is more in the league of U.S. states. So in that sense, if the whole Russian Federation were a U.S. state, it would rank fourth in GDP, behind California, New York, and Florida. California alone has twice the GDP that all of Russia does.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c ... _(nominal)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_s ... tes_by_GDP

But of course, I had to look that up to provide a precise response. Brandolini's Law wins again.
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Re: Russia shows no sign of retreat on invading Ukraine

Post by SteveFoerster » Sun Jan 02, 2022 12:01 pm

Even funnier, Portugal x 6 = Russia. Now that's sad.
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Sertorio
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Re: Russia shows no sign of retreat on invading Ukraine

Post by Sertorio » Sun Jan 02, 2022 12:04 pm

SteveFoerster wrote:
Sun Jan 02, 2022 11:53 am
Sertorio wrote:
Sun Jan 02, 2022 10:25 am
SteveFoerster wrote:
Sun Jan 02, 2022 10:08 am
neverfail wrote:
Sun Jan 02, 2022 1:09 am
Steve, (to return to topic)....

..... would you know what interests the USA has at stake in Ukraine?

Considering how remote Ukraine is from the US and of how apparently worthless it is to your country in economic and geostrategic terms I am puzzled as to why any US administration would be unduly concerned about its fate.

Biden seems to have ruled out using US troops or other assets to fight for it so what else is there to deter Putin from sending in the Russian army in a war of conquest?
Honestly, I'm not sure. Russia is too economically moribund to be a threat to any country it doesn't border, so geopolitically one would think it would have made more sense for U.S. policymakers (within reason) to have placated Putin over the past twenty years as a bulwark against China. Since they didn't, I suppose either they knew something about Russia we don't that made that unworkable, or else they screwed up by needlessly keeping a Cold War mentality after its expiry date.
How can someone say such a silly thing?!... Back it up with statistics, if you can...
Russia's GDP is in between those of South Korea (which has 1/3 its population) and Australia (which has 1/6 its population).

Actually, forget countries. Russia's GDP is more in the league of U.S. states. So in that sense, if the whole Russian Federation were a U.S. state, it would rank fourth in GDP, behind California, New York, and Florida. California alone has twice the GDP that all of Russia does.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c ... _(nominal)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_s ... tes_by_GDP

But of course, I had to look that up to provide a precise response. Brandolini's Law wins again.
It's performance over time that counts:
Russia economy.JPG
Russia economy.JPG (165.81 KiB) Viewed 137 times
Since 2000 both GDP and GDP per capita grew about 250%, inflation and unemployment both strongly decreased, and public debt is less than 20% of GDP. Is that being economically moribund?

While still being very dependent on the production and export of energy, Russia's economy is now more diversified than ever.

"Russia has been widely described as an energy superpower; as it has the world's largest natural gas reserves, the second-largest coal reserves, the eighth-largest oil reserves, and the largest oil shale reserves in Europe. It is the world's leading natural gas exporter, the second-largest natural gas producer, and the second-largest oil exporter, and producer."

" Russia is the world's largest exporter of wheat, and is the largest producer of barley, buckwheat, oats, and rye, and the second-largest producer of sunflower seed."

"In 2019, the country was the 3rd world producer of gold; 2nd worldwide producer of platinum; 4th worldwide producer of silver; 9th largest world producer of copper; 3rd largest world producer of nickel; 6th largest world producer of lead; 9th largest world producer of bauxite; 10th largest world producer of zinc; 2nd worldwide producer of vanadium; 2nd largest world producer of cobalt; 5th largest world producer of iron ore; 7th largest world producer of boron; 9th largest world producer of molybdenum; 13th largest world producer of tin; 3rd largest world producer of sulfur; 4th largest world producer of phosphate; 8th largest world producer of gypsum; in addition to being the world's 10th largest producer of salt. It was the world's 6th largest producer of uranium in 2018."

"In January 2016, the US company Bloomberg rated Russia's economy as the 12th most innovative in the world, up from 14th in January 2015 and 18th in January 2014. Russia has the world's 15th highest patent application rate, the 8th highest concentration of high-tech public companies, such as internet and aerospace and the third highest graduation rate of scientists and engineers."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Russia

I guess you missed those statistics in your in-depth (!?) research...

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Re: Russia shows no sign of retreat on invading Ukraine

Post by neverfail » Sun Jan 02, 2022 10:51 pm

SteveFoerster wrote:
Sun Jan 02, 2022 10:08 am
neverfail wrote:
Sun Jan 02, 2022 1:09 am
Steve, (to return to topic)....

..... would you know what interests the USA has at stake in Ukraine?

Considering how remote Ukraine is from the US and of how apparently worthless it is to your country in economic and geostrategic terms I am puzzled as to why any US administration would be unduly concerned about its fate.

Biden seems to have ruled out using US troops or other assets to fight for it so what else is there to deter Putin from sending in the Russian army in a war of conquest?
Honestly, I'm not sure. Russia is too economically moribund to be a threat to any country it doesn't border, so geopolitically one would think it would have made more sense for U.S. policymakers (within reason) to have placated Putin over the past twenty years as a bulwark against China. Since they didn't, I suppose either they knew something about Russia we don't that made that unworkable, or else they screwed up by needlessly keeping a Cold War mentality after its expiry date.
Hi Steve,

I requested your take on this matter and respect your reply. However in light of some research I had previously done in preparing a reply for Sertorio I am left feeling unsatisfied. So I will toss this one back to you:

Go back to the 1990's decade: the key one following the collapse of Communism that led up to the admission of several former Soviet satillite states into both NATO and the EU - along with three former "republics" of the Soviet Union itself. During that decade Bill Clinton was US President while Boris Yeltsin (not Vladimar Putin) was first president of the Russian Federation. That made a hell of a difference.

My research revealed that to begin with NATO had to expand a little to the east anyway because the (Federal) German Chancellor Helmut Kohl inagurated the merging of the German :lol: Democratic Republic (Communist east Germany) into his own republic (and was not willing to renounce NATO membership in order to complete it).. That arguably set the precedent for the subsequent acceptance of other ex-Warsaw pact countries into the western alliance.

What struck me was just how much the driving force of NATO policy of the time came from America's European allies and how passive the USA was in the matter of NATO expansion. Within US government circles there was if anything skepticism and doubt as to the worth of expanding NATO: but in the end the European allies got their own way.

The clincher was that Boris Yeltsin was not opposed to these countries joining NATO (or the EU). He, unlike his successor in office, did not view it as attempted encirclement of Russia and could live with the emerging scenario with equinimity. With no objections coming from Russia and lobbying from some concerned European governments well, why not "go with the flow" and let the expansion happen?

The change of leadership in Russia from Boris Yeltsin to Vladimar Putin seems to be the sole reason why the West's relations with Russia have deteriorated so badly. They were/are two men of a very different disposition.

Yeltsin's name (I believe) is now mud in his own country because he presided over the collapse not only of the USSR but of the Russian regional economy itself; an unwelcome development that inflicted great hardship on his fellow Russians. Yeltsin's time in government was a policy shambles. Putin might be an autocrat type of ruler (his background was in the St Petersburg slums and his leg up in life was as a KGB operative) but as Sertorio has been at pains to point out: led by this man Russia has been going places.

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Re: Russia shows no sign of retreat on invading Ukraine

Post by SteveFoerster » Mon Jan 03, 2022 7:36 am

I'm not quite sure what you're asking. I agree that Yeltsin and Putin are very different. I wouldn't describe Russia as "going places" unless you mean Abkhazia, Crimea, and Donetsk, but I agree that Putin has played the geopolitical cards he was dealt with unparalleled skill.
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Re: Russia shows no sign of retreat on invading Ukraine

Post by Sertorio » Mon Jan 03, 2022 8:00 am

SteveFoerster wrote:
Mon Jan 03, 2022 7:36 am
... I wouldn't describe Russia as "going places" unless you mean Abkhazia, Crimea, and Donetsk...
Thank you Steve. This phrase takes care of any presumption of objectivity on your side... No doubt you will say it is humour, but to me this is the perfect example of a Freudian slip...

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Re: Russia shows no sign of retreat on invading Ukraine

Post by SteveFoerster » Mon Jan 03, 2022 8:09 am

Sertorio wrote:
Mon Jan 03, 2022 8:00 am
SteveFoerster wrote:
Mon Jan 03, 2022 7:36 am
... I wouldn't describe Russia as "going places" unless you mean Abkhazia, Crimea, and Donetsk...
Thank you Steve. This phrase takes care of any presumption of objectivity on your side... No doubt you will say it is humour, but to me this is the perfect example of a Freudian slip...
By all means, tell us more about this presumption of objectivity with which you're clearly so familiar! :lol:
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