Russia shows no sign of retreat on invading Ukraine

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SteveFoerster
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Re: Russia shows no sign of retreat on invading Ukraine

Post by SteveFoerster » Fri Dec 31, 2021 11:30 pm

neverfail wrote:
Fri Dec 31, 2021 8:52 pm
SteveFoerster wrote:
Fri Dec 31, 2021 6:44 pm
Sertorio wrote:
Fri Dec 31, 2021 6:14 pm
SteveFoerster wrote:
Fri Dec 31, 2021 1:38 pm
neverfail wrote:
Fri Dec 31, 2021 1:28 pm
I see Russia as virtually unconquerable (why would the USA and allies want the bloody place anyway?). So what is Putin worried about?
Domestic unrest, hence the reliance on territorial expansion and sabre-rattling as a diversionary foreign policy.
Domestic unrest?... :shock: Compare it with the situation in the US...
Ahh, the years may change, but your gratuitous references to the U.S. meant to distract from unpleasant truths about your pet dictatorships are an unchanging constant. Happy new year!
But Steve, have there not been times when an incumbent administration even in your country would have welcomed the arrival of war as a distraction from troubles at home?

For instance: let us take FDR and America's entry into the Second World War as a prime example?
My point was that "what about the U.S.?" is not a germane response to every single comment about every other country, yet he does it every single time because he has nothing else to say.

Besides, that's a dreadful example, for two reasons. Firstly, in democracies the point of that sort of thing is to win reelection, and FDR had just been elected to an unprecedented third term as president. Secondly, it's not like he had control over the Japanese attacking the U.S. The conspiracy theory that FDR manoeuvred the Japanese into attacking Pearl Harbor is just that.

A better example would be the Persian Gulf War, i.e., Bush 41's response to Saddam's occupation of Kuwait. Although he timed it wrong, so the wave of patriotism peaked too early and he still lost reelection in '92.
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neverfail
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Re: Russia shows no sign of retreat on invading Ukraine

Post by neverfail » Sat Jan 01, 2022 2:11 am

SteveFoerster wrote:
Fri Dec 31, 2021 11:30 pm
neverfail wrote:
Fri Dec 31, 2021 8:52 pm

But Steve, have there not been times when an incumbent administration even in your country would have welcomed the arrival of war as a distraction from troubles at home?

For instance: let us take FDR and America's entry into the Second World War as a prime example?
Besides, that's a dreadful example, for two reasons. Firstly, in democracies the point of that sort of thing is to win reelection, and FDR had just been elected to an unprecedented third term as president. Secondly, it's not like he had control over the Japanese attacking the U.S. The conspiracy theory that FDR manoeuvred the Japanese into attacking Pearl Harbor is just that.

A better example would be the Persian Gulf War, i.e., Bush 41's response to Saddam's occupation of Kuwait. Although he timed it wrong, so the wave of patriotism peaked too early and he still lost reelection in '92.
Well, I do know that by 1940, the first full year of WW2 (when the US was still a neutral bystander at peace) the US still had an unemployment rate of around 15% of the workforce - more than one in six breadwinners.
https://www.independent.org/publication ... %20rate%20(persons%20officially%20unemployed,14.6%20percent%20to%201.2%20percent.

The standard measure of the unemployment rate (persons officially unemployed as a percent of civilian labor force) fell between 1940 and 1944 from 14.6 percent to 1.2 percent.[4]
The same source goes on to claim:
The prevailing misinterpretations of economic performance during the 1940s have arisen because historians and economists have failed to appreciate that the wartime economy, a command economy, cannot be readily compared with either the prewar or the postwar economy.
And why not I ask? The point was that FDR's wartime semi-command economy succeeded in an endeavour where the semi-laissez-faire pre-war one; controlled by and for corporate vested interests had failed abyssmally. It gave the USA the first taste of full employment it had probably ever experienced. You might have expected the Americans to have learned a valuable lesson from that experience and kept the successful formula of private ownership of the means of production but under state directive going indefinitely. But no; it seems that the American policy making blockheads considered that combo as too "commie" and post-WW2 strove to restore the failed old pre-WW2 status-quo.
............................................................................................................................................

After a surge of renewed employment that was the hallmark of his first term in office the unermployment rate had remained stuck at approximately that level ever since 1936. Had Roosevelt not run for President promising the restoration of full employment?

Whilst FDR might have been re-elected in 1936 by a grateful public because he had almost halved the unemployment rate (on the public supposition that "we are on to a winner here" ) the same could not have been said of his 1940 run. I can only conclude that the Republican Party must have picked the dog of a candidate to run against FDR that year.

Subsequent to the Pearl Harbour bombing and (significently) Hitler's ill-advised declaration of war on the US Roosevelt was able to convert the US economy from a peacetime laissez-faire job into a wartime command economy with no significent opposition either from Congress or from a Supreme Court stacked with "conservative" judges appointed by the preceeding Harding-Coolidge-Hoover Republican administration - both of which had combined to bring several of his peacetime Gt. Depression recovery projects to grief. By 1944 the US unemployment rate haad dropped to a mere 1.2% of workforce and women and blacks had entered it in unprecedented numbers. Thus Roosevelt ache8ived under wartime conditions something trhat he had tried but failed to acheive in peacetime.

Had you been in FDR's shoes would you not have been grateful for America's entry into the Second World War?

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Sertorio
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Re: Russia shows no sign of retreat on invading Ukraine

Post by Sertorio » Sat Jan 01, 2022 3:18 am

SteveFoerster wrote:
Fri Dec 31, 2021 6:44 pm
Sertorio wrote:
Fri Dec 31, 2021 6:14 pm
SteveFoerster wrote:
Fri Dec 31, 2021 1:38 pm
neverfail wrote:
Fri Dec 31, 2021 1:28 pm
I see Russia as virtually unconquerable (why would the USA and allies want the bloody place anyway?). So what is Putin worried about?
Domestic unrest, hence the reliance on territorial expansion and sabre-rattling as a diversionary foreign policy.
Domestic unrest?... :shock: Compare it with the situation in the US...
Ahh, the years may change, but your gratuitous references to the U.S. meant to distract from unpleasant truths about your pet dictatorships are an unchanging constant. Happy new year!
Let's once and for all stop that BS! You keep accusing Russia and China of things which are a lot worse in the US and when I point that out it is "distraction from unpleasant truths about" those countries. No country is perfect, but all that fixation on how awful Russia and China are, from someone who comes from a country with the most appalling record as far as domestic and international policies are concerned is a bit irritating. Like most Americans you are incapable of recognizing the terrible influence the US has had throughout the world, and then try to disguise that by constantly referring to the faults (real or invented) of Russia and China. If there is a real danger of another major war it comes from the arrogant policies of the US. Sabre-rattling, you say? But that's all the US can do, in respect of Russia, China, Iran, North Korea, Syria, Venezuela, Cambodia or Nicaragua. Like the UK in the 19th century, the US is a disease which constantly threatens peace in the world. Yes, the CCP may be awful, but the Chinese are now happier than Americans. Yes, dissent is not tolerated in China, but you don't see there the rioting, constant shooting of innocent people, constant aggressiveness of people against their fellow countrymen you see in the US. China may not be a free society, as we want to see in the West, but it is not diseased as the US. For well over 90% of the Chinese the lack of political freedom is far easier to accept than the lack of security one sees in the US. And the Chinese are free to study what they want, to have the profession they want, to live where they want and how they want, they are not condemned to be homeless or deprived of health care. They travel freely abroad, and they all go back to China, without fearing persecution. With all its shortcomings, China is a much more successful and happy society than the US. But all you care about is repression in Hong Kong, imaginary genocide of the Uyghurs, and attempts to reestablish Chinese sovereign rule over Taiwan. Your imaginary exceptionalism is falling apart, and you can't live with the realization that you are an imperfect society capable of the greatest misdeeds. And so you turn against me, because I point this out to you...

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Re: Russia shows no sign of retreat on invading Ukraine

Post by SteveFoerster » Sat Jan 01, 2022 12:15 pm

The difference is that I can and do talk about what's wrong with the U.S. without immediate recourse to whataboutism, much less doing so every single time.
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Re: Russia shows no sign of retreat on invading Ukraine

Post by neverfail » Sat Jan 01, 2022 1:53 pm

Sertorio wrote:
Sat Jan 01, 2022 3:18 am
Let's once and for all stop that BS!
The BS lies in your susceptability to believe in international conspiracy throries. Like the myth that NATO's eastward expansion that took place during the latter 1990's into the early 2000's was a nefarious American plot to encircle the Russian Federation. (I believe that I scoffed that shiboleth in a recent post).

That Vladimar Putin purports to believe that conspiracy theory also does not lend it greater credability. At first I thought that Putin might have some of the paranoia that Josef Stalin displayed in behaviour right throughout his public life but now I no longer do. Putin comes across to me as perfectly sane. His trouble seems to be that the society he leads has an historically conditioned streak of paranoia about foreign powers and their ambitions on Russia that Putin plays upon for political advantage at home with apparently an utter lack of scruples.

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Re: Russia shows no sign of retreat on invading Ukraine

Post by Sertorio » Sat Jan 01, 2022 4:23 pm

SteveFoerster wrote:
Sat Jan 01, 2022 12:15 pm
The difference is that I can and do talk about what's wrong with the U.S. without immediate recourse to whataboutism, much less doing so every single time.
Is that all you can say in respect of my post? And I guess you will simply continue accusing Russia and China of being the sole culprits in this whole mess... It might help if you could try and put yourself in the place of any Russian or Chinese, and consider how they might feel about the American systematic bullying. But I guess you are not capable of any empathy in respect of either the Russian or the Chinese people. Nor of truly comparing the actions of the US in relation to Russian and Chinese actions...Russia and China commit crimes, the US only causes collateral damage...

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Sertorio
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Re: Russia shows no sign of retreat on invading Ukraine

Post by Sertorio » Sat Jan 01, 2022 4:26 pm

neverfail wrote:
Sat Jan 01, 2022 1:53 pm
Sertorio wrote:
Sat Jan 01, 2022 3:18 am
Let's once and for all stop that BS!
The BS lies in your susceptability to believe in international conspiracy throries. Like the myth that NATO's eastward expansion that took place during the latter 1990's into the early 2000's was a nefarious American plot to encircle the Russian Federation. (I believe that I scoffed that shiboleth in a recent post).

That Vladimar Putin purports to believe that conspiracy theory also does not lend it greater credability. At first I thought that Putin might have some of the paranoia that Josef Stalin displayed in behaviour right throughout his public life but now I no longer do. Putin comes across to me as perfectly sane. His trouble seems to be that the society he leads has an historically conditioned streak of paranoia about foreign powers and their ambitions on Russia that Putin plays upon for political advantage at home with apparently an utter lack of scruples.
Do you truly believe American intentions are always pure and that the US has not been trying, since 1945, to prevent Russia and China ever becoming effective rivals to the American power? And that to achieve that any means are good?...

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Re: Russia shows no sign of retreat on invading Ukraine

Post by SteveFoerster » Sat Jan 01, 2022 6:10 pm

Sertorio wrote:
Sat Jan 01, 2022 4:23 pm
Is that all you can say in respect of my post?
No, but being on the losing side of Brandolini's Law means letting things pass unremarked.
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Re: Russia shows no sign of retreat on invading Ukraine

Post by neverfail » Sun Jan 02, 2022 1:09 am

Steve, (to return to topic)....

..... would you know what interests the USA has at stake in Ukraine?

Considering how remote Ukraine is from the US and of how apparently worthless it is to your country in economic and geostrategic terms I am puzzled as to why any US administration would be unduly concerned about its fate.

Biden seems to have ruled out using US troops or other assets to fight for it so what else is there to deter Putin from sending in the Russian army in a war of conquest?

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Sertorio
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Re: Russia shows no sign of retreat on invading Ukraine

Post by Sertorio » Sun Jan 02, 2022 2:02 am

SteveFoerster wrote:
Sat Jan 01, 2022 6:10 pm
Sertorio wrote:
Sat Jan 01, 2022 4:23 pm
Is that all you can say in respect of my post?
No, but being on the losing side of Brandolini's Law means letting things pass unremarked.
Mark Twain once wrote:

"The glory which is built upon a lie soon becomes a most unpleasant incumbrance… How easy it is to make people believe a lie, and how hard it is to undo that work again!"

You are a master at building your arguments on lies, and you will never accept any proof that you are lying... Ninety percent of what you say about Russia and China is not true, but you need those lies to keep the pretense of virtue, for yourself and your sorry country...

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