Russia shows no sign of retreat on invading Ukraine

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SteveFoerster
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Re: Russia shows no sign of retreat on invading Ukraine

Post by SteveFoerster » Thu Dec 30, 2021 4:44 pm

Sertorio wrote:
Thu Dec 30, 2021 3:32 pm
Doc wrote:
Thu Dec 30, 2021 1:37 pm
Sertorio wrote:
Thu Dec 30, 2021 3:32 am
SteveFoerster wrote:
Wed Dec 29, 2021 10:54 am
Sertorio wrote:
Wed Dec 29, 2021 4:30 am
neverfail wrote:
Wed Dec 29, 2021 4:08 am
Vladimir Putin should dispense with his ambition to rebuild the Soviet Union.

I am sure that Putin is not the only Russian suffering from severe pangs of an aftermath of Emipire kind of nostalga. I am talking about the sort of grief that, after the loss of Indochina and Algeria moved France's Charles de Gaulle to declare that "France cannot live without glory" (and the Brits to become devotees of James Bond movies :D ).

The difference is that in our time only Russia seems determined to turn the clock back.
I watched the other day on television, an interview with Putin in which he clearly stated that rebuilding the Soviet Union was not only impossible but also senseless. Belarus and some small bits in the periphery of the Russian Federation (Abkhazia, South Ossetia, the Donbass) may want to rejoin Russia, but that's not "rebuilding" the Soviet Union. Russia has enough land and resources to satisfy all its needs, so why making things more complicated by reabsorbing mostly countries with Muslim majorities?...Putin is not crazy...
Not only is he's not crazy, he's a genius. That's why there's no way it wasn't purposeful that his list of demands referred to former constituent states of the USSR.
Russia doesn't want to reintegrate those former states of the USSR, but it certainly does not want to see them become platforms to attack Russia. If those countries accept not ever allowing foreign troops in their territory or weapons meant only for aggression, I'm sure Russia will be happy to leave them alone. Just as the Soviet Union did with Finland.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Laughter is often a sign of ignorance:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finno-Sov ... ty_of_1948

The Agreement of Friendship, Cooperation, and Mutual Assistance of 1948, was the basis for Finno–Soviet relations from 1948 to 1992. It was the main instrument in implementing the Finnish policy called Paasikivi–Kekkonen doctrine.

Under the treaty, which was signed on 6 April 1948, the Soviets sought to deter Western or Allied Powers from attacking the Soviet Union through Finnish territory, and the Finns sought to increase Finland's political independence from the Soviet Union. It thus ensured Finland's survival as a liberal democracy in close proximity to strategic Soviet regions, such as the Kola Peninsula and the old capital Leningrad.

Under the pact, Finland was obliged to resist armed attacks by "Germany or its allies" (in reality interpreted as the United States and allies) against Finland, or against the Soviet Union through Finland. If necessary, Finland was to ask for Soviet military aid to do so. However the pact in itself did not provide any provisions for the Soviet military to enter Finland and stipulated that all such actions would have to be agreed separately should Finland choose to request aid. Furthermore, the pact did not place any requirements for Finland to act should the Soviet Union be attacked (if the attack would not take place through Finland). The agreement also recognized Finland's desire to remain outside great-power conflicts, allowing the country to adopt a policy of neutrality in the Cold War.
Do you see now what I meant?...
And the whole reason that "the Finns sought to increase Finland's political independence from the Soviet Union" was that the Soviet Union had invaded them unprovoked eight years before as part of Stalin and Hitler's deal to split up Eastern Europe.

But by all means, keep calling other people ignorant. :lol:

Or better yet, make up one of your reasons why Finland had it coming. This should be good!
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Re: Russia shows no sign of retreat on invading Ukraine

Post by neverfail » Thu Dec 30, 2021 5:16 pm

Sertorio wrote:
Thu Dec 30, 2021 3:32 pm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finno-Sov ... ty_of_1948

The Agreement of Friendship, Cooperation, and Mutual Assistance of 1948, was the basis for Finno–Soviet relations from 1948 to 1992. It was the main instrument in implementing the Finnish policy called Paasikivi–Kekkonen doctrine.

Under the treaty, which was signed on 6 April 1948, the Soviets sought to deter Western or Allied Powers from attacking the Soviet Union through Finnish territory, and the Finns sought to increase Finland's political independence from the Soviet Union. It thus ensured Finland's survival as a liberal democracy in close proximity to strategic Soviet regions, such as the Kola Peninsula and the old capital Leningrad.

Under the pact, Finland was obliged to resist armed attacks by "Germany or its allies" (in reality interpreted as the United States and allies) against Finland, or against the Soviet Union through Finland. If necessary, Finland was to ask for Soviet military aid to do so. However the pact in itself did not provide any provisions for the Soviet military to enter Finland and stipulated that all such actions would have to be agreed separately should Finland choose to request aid. Furthermore, the pact did not place any requirements for Finland to act should the Soviet Union be attacked (if the attack would not take place through Finland). The agreement also recognized Finland's desire to remain outside great-power conflicts, allowing the country to adopt a policy of neutrality in the Cold War.
Do you see now what I meant?...
The deal that Stalin gave to Finland in 1948 was far more agreeable than the fate of Poland, Czeckoslovakia and Hungary at the hands of the same tyrant dictator: but then Finland was not a logical place for the Western powers to initiate an invasion of Soviet territory from anyway. It only would have looked that way from the point of view of a paranoid Russian (or a mentally ill Georgian).

Stalin really had nothing much to worry about. The problem was that with an historical recent memory of the USSR having been invaded by Nazi Germany, Stalin and the rest of the Soviet Union's numerically small cabal of rulers were not sufficiently imaginative to tell the difference between "Nazi" and "Western".

(You sometimes give me the impression, Sertorio, that you have an element of that sort of warped thinking in you as well. :D )

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Re: Russia shows no sign of retreat on invading Ukraine

Post by Sertorio » Fri Dec 31, 2021 2:28 am

SteveFoerster wrote:
Thu Dec 30, 2021 4:44 pm
Sertorio wrote:
Thu Dec 30, 2021 3:32 pm
Doc wrote:
Thu Dec 30, 2021 1:37 pm
Sertorio wrote:
Thu Dec 30, 2021 3:32 am
SteveFoerster wrote:
Wed Dec 29, 2021 10:54 am
Sertorio wrote:
Wed Dec 29, 2021 4:30 am


I watched the other day on television, an interview with Putin in which he clearly stated that rebuilding the Soviet Union was not only impossible but also senseless. Belarus and some small bits in the periphery of the Russian Federation (Abkhazia, South Ossetia, the Donbass) may want to rejoin Russia, but that's not "rebuilding" the Soviet Union. Russia has enough land and resources to satisfy all its needs, so why making things more complicated by reabsorbing mostly countries with Muslim majorities?...Putin is not crazy...
Not only is he's not crazy, he's a genius. That's why there's no way it wasn't purposeful that his list of demands referred to former constituent states of the USSR.
Russia doesn't want to reintegrate those former states of the USSR, but it certainly does not want to see them become platforms to attack Russia. If those countries accept not ever allowing foreign troops in their territory or weapons meant only for aggression, I'm sure Russia will be happy to leave them alone. Just as the Soviet Union did with Finland.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Laughter is often a sign of ignorance:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finno-Sov ... ty_of_1948

The Agreement of Friendship, Cooperation, and Mutual Assistance of 1948, was the basis for Finno–Soviet relations from 1948 to 1992. It was the main instrument in implementing the Finnish policy called Paasikivi–Kekkonen doctrine.

Under the treaty, which was signed on 6 April 1948, the Soviets sought to deter Western or Allied Powers from attacking the Soviet Union through Finnish territory, and the Finns sought to increase Finland's political independence from the Soviet Union. It thus ensured Finland's survival as a liberal democracy in close proximity to strategic Soviet regions, such as the Kola Peninsula and the old capital Leningrad.

Under the pact, Finland was obliged to resist armed attacks by "Germany or its allies" (in reality interpreted as the United States and allies) against Finland, or against the Soviet Union through Finland. If necessary, Finland was to ask for Soviet military aid to do so. However the pact in itself did not provide any provisions for the Soviet military to enter Finland and stipulated that all such actions would have to be agreed separately should Finland choose to request aid. Furthermore, the pact did not place any requirements for Finland to act should the Soviet Union be attacked (if the attack would not take place through Finland). The agreement also recognized Finland's desire to remain outside great-power conflicts, allowing the country to adopt a policy of neutrality in the Cold War.
Do you see now what I meant?...
And the whole reason that "the Finns sought to increase Finland's political independence from the Soviet Union" was that the Soviet Union had invaded them unprovoked eight years before as part of Stalin and Hitler's deal to split up Eastern Europe.

But by all means, keep calling other people ignorant. :lol:

Or better yet, make up one of your reasons why Finland had it coming. This should be good!
As usual you miss the main point. Although the Soviet Union had indeed invaded Finland, the important thing was that it felt it more adequate to sign a treaty which would safeguard most of Finland's independence and, at the same time, safeguard the legitimate interests of the Soviet Union. Neutrality was sufficient for the Soviet Union. Just as Russia now would be happy with the neutrality of the Ukraine and Georgia. Russia doesn't seek more land, it seeks more security, something the US and NATO are not willing to guarantee it. So, Russia will have to guarantee its security by means of a powerful and efficient military. It doesn't take a genius to see it all, but genius and bias don't go well together...

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Re: Russia shows no sign of retreat on invading Ukraine

Post by Sertorio » Fri Dec 31, 2021 2:36 am

neverfail wrote:
Thu Dec 30, 2021 5:16 pm
Sertorio wrote:
Thu Dec 30, 2021 3:32 pm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finno-Sov ... ty_of_1948

The Agreement of Friendship, Cooperation, and Mutual Assistance of 1948, was the basis for Finno–Soviet relations from 1948 to 1992. It was the main instrument in implementing the Finnish policy called Paasikivi–Kekkonen doctrine.

Under the treaty, which was signed on 6 April 1948, the Soviets sought to deter Western or Allied Powers from attacking the Soviet Union through Finnish territory, and the Finns sought to increase Finland's political independence from the Soviet Union. It thus ensured Finland's survival as a liberal democracy in close proximity to strategic Soviet regions, such as the Kola Peninsula and the old capital Leningrad.

Under the pact, Finland was obliged to resist armed attacks by "Germany or its allies" (in reality interpreted as the United States and allies) against Finland, or against the Soviet Union through Finland. If necessary, Finland was to ask for Soviet military aid to do so. However the pact in itself did not provide any provisions for the Soviet military to enter Finland and stipulated that all such actions would have to be agreed separately should Finland choose to request aid. Furthermore, the pact did not place any requirements for Finland to act should the Soviet Union be attacked (if the attack would not take place through Finland). The agreement also recognized Finland's desire to remain outside great-power conflicts, allowing the country to adopt a policy of neutrality in the Cold War.
Do you see now what I meant?...
The deal that Stalin gave to Finland in 1948 was far more agreeable than the fate of Poland, Czeckoslovakia and Hungary at the hands of the same tyrant dictator: but then Finland was not a logical place for the Western powers to initiate an invasion of Soviet territory from anyway. It only would have looked that way from the point of view of a paranoid Russian (or a mentally ill Georgian).

Stalin really had nothing much to worry about. The problem was that with an historical recent memory of the USSR having been invaded by Nazi Germany, Stalin and the rest of the Soviet Union's numerically small cabal of rulers were not sufficiently imaginative to tell the difference between "Nazi" and "Western".

(You sometimes give me the impression, Sertorio, that you have an element of that sort of warped thinking in you as well. :D )
Strategically, Finland is a much shorter distance from (then) Leningrad and Moscow than Poland, so the idea that the Soviet Union could be attacked from there is not such a crazy one.

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Re: Russia shows no sign of retreat on invading Ukraine

Post by neverfail » Fri Dec 31, 2021 1:28 pm

Sertorio wrote:
Fri Dec 31, 2021 2:36 am

Strategically, Finland is a much shorter distance from (then) Leningrad and Moscow than Poland, so the idea that the Soviet Union could be attacked from there is not such a crazy one.

Image
I am aware of the geographical proximity of Finland to northern Russia (not the most populous and productive part of the country) but what I have taken note of is that it also moves any invading army further away from its home base; lengthens its supply lines.

It is this factor of distance and logistics that defeated Napoleon and his Grande Armee inj 1812-13. I believe that it also -played a significent part in the defeat of Nazi Germany's whermacht by Soviet forces in the 1941-45 war.

I see Russia as virtually unconquerable (why would the USA and allies want the bloody place anyway?). So what is Putin worried about?

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Re: Russia shows no sign of retreat on invading Ukraine

Post by SteveFoerster » Fri Dec 31, 2021 1:38 pm

neverfail wrote:
Fri Dec 31, 2021 1:28 pm
I see Russia as virtually unconquerable (why would the USA and allies want the bloody place anyway?). So what is Putin worried about?
Domestic unrest, hence the reliance on territorial expansion and sabre-rattling as a diversionary foreign policy.
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Re: Russia shows no sign of retreat on invading Ukraine

Post by neverfail » Fri Dec 31, 2021 1:50 pm

SteveFoerster wrote:
Fri Dec 31, 2021 1:38 pm
neverfail wrote:
Fri Dec 31, 2021 1:28 pm
I see Russia as virtually unconquerable (why would the USA and allies want the bloody place anyway?). So what is Putin worried about?
Domestic unrest, hence the reliance on territorial expansion and sabre-rattling as a diversionary foreign policy.
Well, that explanation reads as plausable. It bolsters a bogus national unity with a contrived, chauvisistic sense of solidarity by pretending that the big bad wolf is knocking at the door.

By the way: might I wish you and kin, along with all other regular participants on this website, a very happy and prosperous New Year. As I keyboard this message on my side of the International date line it is already the morning of New years day - and where you are still the evening of New Year's eve, 2021. So greetings from 2022! :D

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Re: Russia shows no sign of retreat on invading Ukraine

Post by Sertorio » Fri Dec 31, 2021 6:14 pm

SteveFoerster wrote:
Fri Dec 31, 2021 1:38 pm
neverfail wrote:
Fri Dec 31, 2021 1:28 pm
I see Russia as virtually unconquerable (why would the USA and allies want the bloody place anyway?). So what is Putin worried about?
Domestic unrest, hence the reliance on territorial expansion and sabre-rattling as a diversionary foreign policy.
Domestic unrest?... :shock: Compare it with the situation in the US...

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Re: Russia shows no sign of retreat on invading Ukraine

Post by SteveFoerster » Fri Dec 31, 2021 6:44 pm

Sertorio wrote:
Fri Dec 31, 2021 6:14 pm
SteveFoerster wrote:
Fri Dec 31, 2021 1:38 pm
neverfail wrote:
Fri Dec 31, 2021 1:28 pm
I see Russia as virtually unconquerable (why would the USA and allies want the bloody place anyway?). So what is Putin worried about?
Domestic unrest, hence the reliance on territorial expansion and sabre-rattling as a diversionary foreign policy.
Domestic unrest?... :shock: Compare it with the situation in the US...
Ahh, the years may change, but your gratuitous references to the U.S. meant to distract from unpleasant truths about your pet dictatorships are an unchanging constant. Happy new year!
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Re: Russia shows no sign of retreat on invading Ukraine

Post by neverfail » Fri Dec 31, 2021 8:52 pm

SteveFoerster wrote:
Fri Dec 31, 2021 6:44 pm
Sertorio wrote:
Fri Dec 31, 2021 6:14 pm
SteveFoerster wrote:
Fri Dec 31, 2021 1:38 pm
neverfail wrote:
Fri Dec 31, 2021 1:28 pm
I see Russia as virtually unconquerable (why would the USA and allies want the bloody place anyway?). So what is Putin worried about?
Domestic unrest, hence the reliance on territorial expansion and sabre-rattling as a diversionary foreign policy.
Domestic unrest?... :shock: Compare it with the situation in the US...
Ahh, the years may change, but your gratuitous references to the U.S. meant to distract from unpleasant truths about your pet dictatorships are an unchanging constant. Happy new year!
But Steve, have there not been times when an incumbent administration even in your country would have welcomed the arrival of war as a distraction from troubles at home?

For instance: let us take FDR and America's entry into the Second World War as a prime example?

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