Prepare for Armageddona

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Milo
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Re: Prepare for Armageddona

Post by Milo » Tue Nov 23, 2021 6:01 pm

Doc wrote:
Tue Nov 23, 2021 5:50 pm
Milo wrote:
Tue Nov 23, 2021 4:47 pm
Doc wrote:
Tue Nov 23, 2021 3:40 pm
Milo wrote:
Tue Nov 23, 2021 3:34 pm
Doc wrote:
Tue Nov 23, 2021 2:46 pm
Milo wrote:
Tue Nov 23, 2021 12:43 pm


Or anywhere else!

The closest was HK before Beijing messed it up.

But is five years really that unusual? And maybe government should try to ensure that private industry doesn’t just kill us all?

In the US? Yes. Start of paperwork to building complete in some states is 18 months. There are restrictions like available water is some places like AZ. Water has been short in CA but that has nothing to do with the current homeless crisis/scandal there. NYC has taken to deal with its homeless by paying to ship them out to others states that do not have a homeless crisis.
So it’s hardly same day approval wherever you are!

Maybe some fat cats paid for some astroturf here.
Yeah but you put out a million dollars on the chance you will get it back plus a profit. So is that housing going to be more or less expensive if you have to wait 5 years to get your money back? And remember in California there is a massive shortage of housing, with still growing demand. So does waiting 5 years to get the Apartment building built help or hurt the homeless crisis?
Depends if the building doesn't fall over or catch fire, because the regulators make the developer adhere to some standards.


I know you put your faith in a sleezy property developer long ago but I do not have such faith.
I know you put your faith in sleazy politicians long ago but I do not have such faith. ;)

A lot of these developers build the buildings with the idea that *they* are going to rent out the apartments. Otherwise they would more often than not sell them as condos. People living in the street in flith don't usually have money good enough credit references to buy a condo.
You can’t sell them as condos unless you are zoned for it anyway.

People on the street can’t make rent either.

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Doc
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Re: Prepare for Armageddona

Post by Doc » Tue Nov 23, 2021 8:00 pm

Milo wrote:
Tue Nov 23, 2021 6:01 pm
Doc wrote:
Tue Nov 23, 2021 5:50 pm
Milo wrote:
Tue Nov 23, 2021 4:47 pm
Doc wrote:
Tue Nov 23, 2021 3:40 pm
Milo wrote:
Tue Nov 23, 2021 3:34 pm
Doc wrote:
Tue Nov 23, 2021 2:46 pm


In the US? Yes. Start of paperwork to building complete in some states is 18 months. There are restrictions like available water is some places like AZ. Water has been short in CA but that has nothing to do with the current homeless crisis/scandal there. NYC has taken to deal with its homeless by paying to ship them out to others states that do not have a homeless crisis.
So it’s hardly same day approval wherever you are!

Maybe some fat cats paid for some astroturf here.
Yeah but you put out a million dollars on the chance you will get it back plus a profit. So is that housing going to be more or less expensive if you have to wait 5 years to get your money back? And remember in California there is a massive shortage of housing, with still growing demand. So does waiting 5 years to get the Apartment building built help or hurt the homeless crisis?
Depends if the building doesn't fall over or catch fire, because the regulators make the developer adhere to some standards.


I know you put your faith in a sleezy property developer long ago but I do not have such faith.
I know you put your faith in sleazy politicians long ago but I do not have such faith. ;)

A lot of these developers build the buildings with the idea that *they* are going to rent out the apartments. Otherwise they would more often than not sell them as condos. People living in the street in flith don't usually have money good enough credit references to buy a condo.
You can’t sell them as condos unless you are zoned for it anyway.

People on the street can’t make rent either.
Yes on both counts. too many Nimbys on the first count. Lack of apartments to subsidize on the second. SO there is little subsidized rent for in CA. There are no buildings to put subsidized renters into either. Usually landlords rent to government subsidized renters because too many apartment buildings were built. Rather than let them go empty they rent to "section 8" renters. In San Francisco for example a basic apartment can cost $5k per month.
“"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros

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Milo
Posts: 3519
Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2016 10:14 pm

Re: Prepare for Armageddona

Post by Milo » Wed Nov 24, 2021 8:45 am

Doc wrote:
Tue Nov 23, 2021 8:00 pm
Milo wrote:
Tue Nov 23, 2021 6:01 pm
Doc wrote:
Tue Nov 23, 2021 5:50 pm
Milo wrote:
Tue Nov 23, 2021 4:47 pm
Doc wrote:
Tue Nov 23, 2021 3:40 pm
Milo wrote:
Tue Nov 23, 2021 3:34 pm


So it’s hardly same day approval wherever you are!

Maybe some fat cats paid for some astroturf here.
Yeah but you put out a million dollars on the chance you will get it back plus a profit. So is that housing going to be more or less expensive if you have to wait 5 years to get your money back? And remember in California there is a massive shortage of housing, with still growing demand. So does waiting 5 years to get the Apartment building built help or hurt the homeless crisis?
Depends if the building doesn't fall over or catch fire, because the regulators make the developer adhere to some standards.


I know you put your faith in a sleezy property developer long ago but I do not have such faith.
I know you put your faith in sleazy politicians long ago but I do not have such faith. ;)

A lot of these developers build the buildings with the idea that *they* are going to rent out the apartments. Otherwise they would more often than not sell them as condos. People living in the street in flith don't usually have money good enough credit references to buy a condo.
You can’t sell them as condos unless you are zoned for it anyway.

People on the street can’t make rent either.
Yes on both counts. too many Nimbys on the first count. Lack of apartments to subsidize on the second. SO there is little subsidized rent for in CA. There are no buildings to put subsidized renters into either. Usually landlords rent to government subsidized renters because too many apartment buildings were built. Rather than let them go empty they rent to "section 8" renters. In San Francisco for example a basic apartment can cost $5k per month.
As someone who frequently takes legal aid files, I can assure you that not having housing is the least of the homeless’ problems. They are typically crazy and addicted to hard drugs. Housing will not make them uncrazy and will not stop their addiction. In other words, it’s much more a health problem than a housing problem.

neverfail
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Location: Singapore

Re: Prepare for Armageddona

Post by neverfail » Wed Nov 24, 2021 1:31 pm

SteveFoerster wrote:
Tue Nov 23, 2021 6:08 am
neverfail wrote:
Sun Nov 21, 2021 7:17 pm
In a normal country with a true free market, we let the private sector make the decisions. At the end of the year, civil servants go out to measure the economic activity. So in a free market economy, developers will decide on how many apartments to build, based on their best judgement on the demand for apartments.
Under that definition, I can't name a single country with a "true free market". What the world has is corporatism, where government policymakers and corporate executives share power over those decisions, often uneasily.
Cassowary's handiwork SF; NOt mine! :)

neverfail
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Location: Singapore

Re: Prepare for Armageddona

Post by neverfail » Wed Nov 24, 2021 1:36 pm

Milo wrote:
Wed Nov 24, 2021 8:45 am
As someone who frequently takes legal aid files, I can assure you that not having housing is the least of the homeless’ problems. They are typically crazy and addicted to hard drugs. Housing will not make them uncrazy and will not stop their addiction. In other words, it’s much more a health problem than a housing problem.
I don't disagree with this insight Milo. It's just that out here in Oz plenty of people who are not memtally ill (or degenerate in habits) cannot find homes to buy or even accommodation to rent because they are on low incomes and whatever is driving up the price of real estate worldwide is doing the same here too.

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Milo
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Re: Prepare for Armageddona

Post by Milo » Wed Nov 24, 2021 1:42 pm

neverfail wrote:
Wed Nov 24, 2021 1:36 pm
Milo wrote:
Wed Nov 24, 2021 8:45 am
As someone who frequently takes legal aid files, I can assure you that not having housing is the least of the homeless’ problems. They are typically crazy and addicted to hard drugs. Housing will not make them uncrazy and will not stop their addiction. In other words, it’s much more a health problem than a housing problem.
I don't disagree with this insight Milo. It's just that out here in Oz plenty of people who are not memtally ill (or degenerate in habits) cannot find homes to buy or even accommodation to rent because they are on low incomes and whatever is driving up the price of real estate worldwide is doing the same here too.
The main culprit here is PRC gangster money.

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Doc
Posts: 6258
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Re: Prepare for Armageddona

Post by Doc » Wed Nov 24, 2021 3:44 pm

Milo wrote:
Wed Nov 24, 2021 8:45 am
Doc wrote:
Tue Nov 23, 2021 8:00 pm
Milo wrote:
Tue Nov 23, 2021 6:01 pm
Doc wrote:
Tue Nov 23, 2021 5:50 pm
Milo wrote:
Tue Nov 23, 2021 4:47 pm
Doc wrote:
Tue Nov 23, 2021 3:40 pm


Yeah but you put out a million dollars on the chance you will get it back plus a profit. So is that housing going to be more or less expensive if you have to wait 5 years to get your money back? And remember in California there is a massive shortage of housing, with still growing demand. So does waiting 5 years to get the Apartment building built help or hurt the homeless crisis?
Depends if the building doesn't fall over or catch fire, because the regulators make the developer adhere to some standards.


I know you put your faith in a sleezy property developer long ago but I do not have such faith.
I know you put your faith in sleazy politicians long ago but I do not have such faith. ;)

A lot of these developers build the buildings with the idea that *they* are going to rent out the apartments. Otherwise they would more often than not sell them as condos. People living in the street in flith don't usually have money good enough credit references to buy a condo.
You can’t sell them as condos unless you are zoned for it anyway.

People on the street can’t make rent either.
Yes on both counts. too many Nimbys on the first count. Lack of apartments to subsidize on the second. SO there is little subsidized rent for in CA. There are no buildings to put subsidized renters into either. Usually landlords rent to government subsidized renters because too many apartment buildings were built. Rather than let them go empty they rent to "section 8" renters. In San Francisco for example a basic apartment can cost $5k per month.
As someone who frequently takes legal aid files, I can assure you that not having housing is the least of the homeless’ problems. They are typically crazy and addicted to hard drugs. Housing will not make them uncrazy and will not stop their addiction. In other words, it’s much more a health problem than a housing problem.
I understand that very well. Much of it is mental health. That part of the problem happened way back in th e1960's and 70's when the mentally ill were no longer held in mental health institutions after stories like this started coming out



The idea at th etime was to move the mentally ill into half way houses. Little of which happened.

But there are also homeless in CA that had homes and could not either oay their property taxes or more often took out a mortgage before the 2009 housing crash and could not make the bubble payments. Many did not even realize their payment amounts were going to increase after a period of time.
“"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros

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Sertorio
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Re: Prepare for Armageddona

Post by Sertorio » Thu Nov 25, 2021 1:42 am

neverfail wrote:
Wed Nov 24, 2021 1:36 pm
Milo wrote:
Wed Nov 24, 2021 8:45 am
As someone who frequently takes legal aid files, I can assure you that not having housing is the least of the homeless’ problems. They are typically crazy and addicted to hard drugs. Housing will not make them uncrazy and will not stop their addiction. In other words, it’s much more a health problem than a housing problem.
I don't disagree with this insight Milo. It's just that out here in Oz plenty of people who are not memtally ill (or degenerate in habits) cannot find homes to buy or even accommodation to rent because they are on low incomes and whatever is driving up the price of real estate worldwide is doing the same here too.
Milo is, as usual, making unwarranted generalizations just to hide the fact that our societies don't give a shit about poor people. In Lisbon we have both homeless people who are maladjusted, and homeless people who are simply destitute. The former one tries to treat, the latter one tries to help with work and temporary subsidies. The results are encouraging, mostly because the homeless realize that there are people out there actually trying to help them. Being a warm, Latin society helps...

neverfail
Posts: 7601
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2016 3:47 am
Location: Singapore

Re: Prepare for Armageddona

Post by neverfail » Thu Nov 25, 2021 1:13 pm

Sertorio wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 1:42 am
neverfail wrote:
Wed Nov 24, 2021 1:36 pm
Milo wrote:
Wed Nov 24, 2021 8:45 am
As someone who frequently takes legal aid files, I can assure you that not having housing is the least of the homeless’ problems. They are typically crazy and addicted to hard drugs. Housing will not make them uncrazy and will not stop their addiction. In other words, it’s much more a health problem than a housing problem.
I don't disagree with this insight Milo. It's just that out here in Oz plenty of people who are not memtally ill (or degenerate in habits) cannot find homes to buy or even accommodation to rent because they are on low incomes and whatever is driving up the price of real estate worldwide is doing the same here too.
Milo is, as usual, making unwarranted generalizations just to hide the fact that our societies don't give a shit about poor people. In Lisbon we have both homeless people who are maladjusted, and homeless people who are simply destitute. The former one tries to treat, the latter one tries to help with work and temporary subsidies. The results are encouraging, mostly because the homeless realize that there are people out there actually trying to help them. Being a warm, Latin society helps...
Governments here, including our present one, have tried state subsidies to first home buyers but the flow-on consequence always seems to be that sellers bump up prices further - putting housing prices even further out of reach.

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cassowary
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Re: Prepare for Armageddona

Post by cassowary » Fri Nov 26, 2021 12:35 am

neverfail wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 1:13 pm
Sertorio wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 1:42 am
neverfail wrote:
Wed Nov 24, 2021 1:36 pm
Milo wrote:
Wed Nov 24, 2021 8:45 am
As someone who frequently takes legal aid files, I can assure you that not having housing is the least of the homeless’ problems. They are typically crazy and addicted to hard drugs. Housing will not make them uncrazy and will not stop their addiction. In other words, it’s much more a health problem than a housing problem.
I don't disagree with this insight Milo. It's just that out here in Oz plenty of people who are not memtally ill (or degenerate in habits) cannot find homes to buy or even accommodation to rent because they are on low incomes and whatever is driving up the price of real estate worldwide is doing the same here too.
Milo is, as usual, making unwarranted generalizations just to hide the fact that our societies don't give a shit about poor people. In Lisbon we have both homeless people who are maladjusted, and homeless people who are simply destitute. The former one tries to treat, the latter one tries to help with work and temporary subsidies. The results are encouraging, mostly because the homeless realize that there are people out there actually trying to help them. Being a warm, Latin society helps...
Governments here, including our present one, have tried state subsidies to first home buyers but the flow-on consequence always seems to be that sellers bump up prices further - putting housing prices even further out of reach.
We had a similar experience with health care subsidies. Our doctors charge more. You can't escape the laws of economics - Supply and demand. Give subsidies and demand for medical care goes up. If supply of doctors and dentists remain the same, they charge more.
The Imp :D

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