Does Europe Really Want to Start a War With Russia?

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Sertorio
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Re: Is Belarus migrant crisis a new type of war?

Post by Sertorio » Fri Nov 19, 2021 5:47 pm

SteveFoerster wrote:
Fri Nov 19, 2021 4:38 pm
Sertorio wrote:
Fri Nov 19, 2021 1:30 am
neverfail wrote:
Thu Nov 18, 2021 9:06 pm
Lukashenko deserved to have EU sanctions imposed on him for forcing a commercial airline to make an unscheduled landing in his country so that his thugs could kidnap a political rival of his from among the passengers.

Now Sertorio; please cease making a hypocrite of yourself speaking censorously about alleged EU disrespect for human rights.
Terrible, indeed. But when it was Austria, at the bequest of the US, forcing the landing of the Bolivian presidential plane, with Morales aboard, to see if Snowden was also aboard, everybody thought it was reasonable...
Really? Everyone did? :roll:

In other words, knowing that neverfail is right and you are wrong, you deflect with whataboutism about the U.S., and yet you still have to lie about what the reaction was to a seemingly analogous incident.
I don't remember anybody criticizing the forced landing of the Morales plane. And if I missed it it's because only a tiny minority did it...

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SteveFoerster
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Re: Is Belarus migrant crisis a new type of war?

Post by SteveFoerster » Fri Nov 19, 2021 8:56 pm

Sertorio wrote:
Fri Nov 19, 2021 5:47 pm
SteveFoerster wrote:
Fri Nov 19, 2021 4:38 pm
Sertorio wrote:
Fri Nov 19, 2021 1:30 am
neverfail wrote:
Thu Nov 18, 2021 9:06 pm
Lukashenko deserved to have EU sanctions imposed on him for forcing a commercial airline to make an unscheduled landing in his country so that his thugs could kidnap a political rival of his from among the passengers.

Now Sertorio; please cease making a hypocrite of yourself speaking censorously about alleged EU disrespect for human rights.
Terrible, indeed. But when it was Austria, at the bequest of the US, forcing the landing of the Bolivian presidential plane, with Morales aboard, to see if Snowden was also aboard, everybody thought it was reasonable...
Really? Everyone did? :roll:

In other words, knowing that neverfail is right and you are wrong, you deflect with whataboutism about the U.S., and yet you still have to lie about what the reaction was to a seemingly analogous incident.
I don't remember anybody criticizing the forced landing of the Morales plane. And if I missed it it's because only a tiny minority did it...
Or, based on what you relentlessly post, it's because all you read are articles written in the Kremlin.
Writer, technologist, educator, gadfly.
President of New World University: https://newworld.ac

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Sertorio
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Re: Is Belarus migrant crisis a new type of war?

Post by Sertorio » Sat Nov 20, 2021 1:47 am

SteveFoerster wrote:
Fri Nov 19, 2021 8:56 pm
Sertorio wrote:
Fri Nov 19, 2021 5:47 pm
SteveFoerster wrote:
Fri Nov 19, 2021 4:38 pm
Sertorio wrote:
Fri Nov 19, 2021 1:30 am
neverfail wrote:
Thu Nov 18, 2021 9:06 pm
Lukashenko deserved to have EU sanctions imposed on him for forcing a commercial airline to make an unscheduled landing in his country so that his thugs could kidnap a political rival of his from among the passengers.

Now Sertorio; please cease making a hypocrite of yourself speaking censorously about alleged EU disrespect for human rights.
Terrible, indeed. But when it was Austria, at the bequest of the US, forcing the landing of the Bolivian presidential plane, with Morales aboard, to see if Snowden was also aboard, everybody thought it was reasonable...
Really? Everyone did? :roll:

In other words, knowing that neverfail is right and you are wrong, you deflect with whataboutism about the U.S., and yet you still have to lie about what the reaction was to a seemingly analogous incident.
I don't remember anybody criticizing the forced landing of the Morales plane. And if I missed it it's because only a tiny minority did it...
Or, based on what you relentlessly post, it's because all you read are articles written in the Kremlin.
Maybe you will be kind enough to quote to us two articles by Western opinion makers criticizing the forced landing of the Morales plane in Austria... And another two comparing the Belarus forced landing to the Morales one...

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Sertorio
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Re: Does Europe Really Want to Start a War With Russia?

Post by Sertorio » Sat Nov 20, 2021 2:11 am

The Morales forced landing:
Bolivia president's jet grounded in Snowden search
https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-latin ... a-23166146

Bolivia has expressed its anger after their president's jet was forced to land in Austria on Tuesday night following a tip-off that the fugitive US spy agency contractor Edward Snowden was on board.

The plane was taking President Evo Morales home after a summit in Moscow.

The jet was reportedly searched for Mr Snowden, wanted for leaking US secrets.

He was apparently not on board and is still believed to be in Moscow's Sheremetyevo airport, from where he is seeking asylum in Bolivia and several other countries.
Just a report. No criticism.

To be fair, The Guardian did publish this opinion article on the subject:
Forcing down Evo Morales's plane was an act of air piracy
by John Pilger
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... air-piracy

Imagine the aircraft of the president of France being forced down in Latin America on "suspicion" that it was carrying a political refugee to safety – and not just any refugee but someone who has provided the people of the world with proof of criminal activity on an epic scale.

Imagine the response from Paris, let alone the "international community", as the governments of the west call themselves. To a chorus of baying indignation from Whitehall to Washington, Brussels to Madrid, heroic special forces would be dispatched to rescue their leader and, as sport, smash up the source of such flagrant international gangsterism. Editorials would cheer them on, perhaps reminding readers that this kind of piracy was exhibited by the German Reich in the 1930s.

The forcing down of Bolivian President Evo Morales's plane – denied airspace by France, Spain and Portugal, followed by his 14-hour confinement while Austrian officials demanded to "inspect" his aircraft for the "fugitive" Edward Snowden – was an act of air piracy and state terrorism. It was a metaphor for the gangsterism that now rules the world and the cowardice and hypocrisy of bystanders who dare not speak its name.

In Moscow, Morales had been asked about Snowden – who remains trapped in the city's airport. "If there were a request [for political asylum]," he said, "of course, we would be willing to debate and consider the idea." That was clearly enough provocation for the Godfather. "We have been in touch with a range of countries that had a chance of having Snowden land or travel through their country," said a US state department official.

The French – having squealed about Washington spying on their every move, as revealed by Snowden – were first off the mark, followed by the Portuguese. The Spanish then did their bit by enforcing a flight ban of their airspace, giving the Godfather's Viennese hirelings enough time to find out if Snowden was indeed invoking article 14 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, which states: "Everyone has the right to seek and to enjoy in other countries asylum from persecution."

Those paid to keep the record straight have played their part with a cat-and-mouse media game that reinforces the Godfather's lie that this heroic young man is running from a system of justice, rather than preordained, vindictive incarceration that amounts to torture – ask Bradley Manning and the living ghosts in Guantánamo.

Historians seem to agree that the rise of fascism in Europe might have been averted had the liberal or left political class understood the true nature of its enemy. The parallels today are very different, but the Damocles sword over Snowden, like the casual abduction of Bolivia's president, ought to stir us into recognising the true nature of the enemy.

Snowden's revelations are not merely about privacy, or civil liberty, or even mass spying. They are about the unmentionable: that the democratic facades of the US now barely conceal a systematic gangsterism historically identified with, if not necessarily the same as, fascism. On Tuesday, a US drone killed 16 people in North Waziristan, "where many of the world's most dangerous militants live", said the few paragraphs I read. That by far the world's most dangerous militants had hurled the drones was not a consideration. President Obama personally sends them every Tuesday.

In his acceptance of the 2005 Nobel prize in literature, Harold Pinter referred to "a vast tapestry of lies, upon which we feed". He asked why "the systematic brutality, the widespread atrocities" of the Soviet Union were well known in the west while America's crimes were "superficially recorded, let alone documented, let alone acknowledged". The most enduring silence of the modern era covered the extinction and dispossession of countless human beings by a rampant US and its agents. "But you wouldn't know it," said Pinter. "It never happened. Even while it was happening it never happened."

This hidden history – not really hidden, of course, but excluded from the consciousness of societies drilled in American myths and priorities – has never been more vulnerable to exposure. Snowden's whistleblowing, like that of Manning and Julian Assange and WikiLeaks, threatens to break the silence Pinter described. In revealing a vast Orwellian police state apparatus servicing history's greatest war-making machine, they illuminate the true extremism of the 21st century. Unprecedented, Germany's Der Spiegel has described the Obama administration as "soft totalitarianism". If the penny is falling, we might all look closer to home.
This is a personal opinion, not The Guardian's view on the incident. And the fact is that, contrarily to what happened with Lukashenko and the Belarus incident, no one was sanctioned among the countries which contributed to this "act of piracy". So the justification for sanctioning the Belarus seems slim indeed...

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Re: Does Europe Really Want to Start a War With Russia?

Post by SteveFoerster » Sat Nov 20, 2021 12:39 pm

Having found the extremist argument that Lukashenko did nothing wrong to be utterly indefensible, you have retreated to the much safer argument that it's hypocritical for Western policymakers to criticise Lukashenko for doing when they were cravenly silent when the U.S. did something similar, while pretending these are the same argument.

The name of this style of dishonest argumentation is motte and bailey.

Longer explanation, for the interested:

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Sertorio
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Re: Does Europe Really Want to Start a War With Russia?

Post by Sertorio » Sat Nov 20, 2021 12:54 pm

SteveFoerster wrote:
Sat Nov 20, 2021 12:39 pm
Having found the extremist argument that Lukashenko did nothing wrong to be utterly indefensible, you have retreated to the much safer argument that it's hypocritical for Western policymakers to criticise Lukashenko for doing when they were cravenly silent when the U.S. did something similar, while pretending these are the same argument.

The name of this style of dishonest argumentation is motte and bailey.
My argument was logical, not ideological:

a) If Lukashenko did something wrong, so did Austria and other European countries. Why were the reactions different?

b) If Austria and other European countries did nothing wrong, neither did Lukashenko. Why were the reactions different?

Any problems with that?...

neverfail
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Re: Does Europe Really Want to Start a War With Russia?

Post by neverfail » Sat Nov 20, 2021 2:52 pm

Sertorio wrote:
Sat Nov 20, 2021 2:11 am
The Morales forced landing:
The forcing down of Bolivian President Evo Morales's plane – denied airspace by France, Spain and Portugal, followed by his 14-hour confinement while Austrian officials demanded to "inspect" his aircraft for the "fugitive" Edward Snowden – was an act of air piracy and state terrorism.
Oh wow! The governments of France, Spain and Portugal were smart to deny Morales' plane overfly rights. All three governments must have anticipated that the US might make such a request and wanted to spare themselves the embarrasment of having to either refuse the American request (with possible adverse consequences for themselves) or else ordering the plane to land and then finding that Snowdon was not on board (as subsequently happened in Austria).

Since Austria is NOT a NATO member state I fail to see what "leverage" the US government could have applied to compel Austria to ground the plane as it overflew their territory. More likely the Yanks presented Vienna with a credible case.

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Sertorio
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Re: Does Europe Really Want to Start a War With Russia?

Post by Sertorio » Sat Nov 20, 2021 3:35 pm

neverfail wrote:
Sat Nov 20, 2021 2:52 pm
Sertorio wrote:
Sat Nov 20, 2021 2:11 am
The Morales forced landing:
The forcing down of Bolivian President Evo Morales's plane – denied airspace by France, Spain and Portugal, followed by his 14-hour confinement while Austrian officials demanded to "inspect" his aircraft for the "fugitive" Edward Snowden – was an act of air piracy and state terrorism.
Oh wow! The governments of France, Spain and Portugal were smart to deny Morales' plane overfly rights. All three governments must have anticipated that the US might make such a request and wanted to spare themselves the embarrasment of having to either refuse the American request (with possible adverse consequences for themselves) or else ordering the plane to land and then finding that Snowdon was not on board (as subsequently happened in Austria).

Since Austria is NOT a NATO member state I fail to see what "leverage" the US government could have applied to compel Austria to ground the plane as it overflew their territory. More likely the Yanks presented Vienna with a credible case.
No need for anticipation. No doubt the US government told them exactly what to do...

neverfail
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Re: Does Europe Really Want to Start a War With Russia?

Post by neverfail » Sat Nov 20, 2021 4:07 pm

Sertorio wrote:
Sat Nov 20, 2021 3:35 pm
neverfail wrote:
Sat Nov 20, 2021 2:52 pm


Since Austria is NOT a NATO member state I fail to see what "leverage" the US government could have applied to compel Austria to ground the plane as it overflew their territory. More likely the Yanks presented Vienna with a credible case.
No need for anticipation. No doubt the US government told them exactly what to do...
Why "no doubt"? To fly from Bolivia to Moscow in order to enable Morales to meet up with Putin the logical entry point into European airspace would be Portugal and Spain. Why not ground Morale's plane there? Conversely, Austria is a landlocked country. To get to it you normally need to overfly other European countries such as Italy or Germany which are NATO members - or else France followed by Switzerland. So why wait until Morales' aircraft arrived over Austria?

Sorry Sertorio. Your logic makes no sense to me.

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