Would America Survive a Civil War?

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neverfail
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Re: Would America Survive a Civil War?

Post by neverfail » Sat Nov 13, 2021 6:11 pm

Milo wrote:
Sat Nov 13, 2021 5:18 pm
neverfail wrote:
Sat Nov 13, 2021 2:46 pm
SteveFoerster wrote:
Sat Nov 13, 2021 12:26 pm

My fiancée is Canadian, from B.C. Her dad's parents were English and came over to Victoria ("Little England", apparently) some time around then, I gather.
Congratulations Steve. Wishing you and betrothed a life of future contentment.

For a footloose Brit to settle down in any of Canada's four western provinces appears to be a good choice. There you gain virtually all of the advantages of settling in the United States but minus having to dodge all of the flying bullets in a country where every homicidal maniac has a constitutional guarantee of the right to gun ownership. :D
My guess would be that Australia has their own version of this!

And congratulations Steve.
You are not wrong there Milo.

Australia has, ever since the pains of its founding decades were overcome and a prosperous new colony emerged, been like a drawcard for immigrants from the UK. To attract suitable immigrant settlers we did something out here that they never had to do in the United States and I doubt whether they ever did in Canada. Reflecting the fact that 1. our country was located half a world away from Britain (resulting in higher travel costs than for those who made the "short jump across the North Atlantic" instead) and 2. we had competition from the North American pair for suitable immigrant-settlers: from 1831 onward Australian governments during times of Labour shortages resorted to part-paying the fares of would-be immigrants of suitable character who were nevertheless insufficiently pecunious to pay their own fares in full as in incentive for these to choose Australia as a land to migrate to.

That fare subsidy however applied ONLY to immigrants from the British Isles. If you originated from anywhwere else you still had to pay your own fare in full.

This tradition continued on until the year 1973, when the UK joined the EU and as part of the cost had to re-orient its immigration policy to favour citizens of the other EU member states. Of course no Australian government was willing to continue the formerly priveleged entry to Australia that British citizens had previiously enjoyed while British governments denied us ours to their country.

It is also the reason why until the mid-1970's immigration into Australia was disproportionally Anglo-Celtic.
..................................................................................................................................

Milo: some years ago I recall some university into the US investigated where the immigrant ancestors of the Americans of today came from - to determine the exact ethnic mix of the USA. They discovered that by far the biggest minority of 'ethnic " Americans were the Germans - Steve Foerster's crowd :) .

The second biggest were the Irish (Joe Biden's bunch :D ) The English (bona-fide Anglos) were only the third largest and in raw numbers only a fraction of the demographic size of the German (or Teutonic) Americans. The fourth largest were Americans of African ancestry.

Were one to do a similar assessment of the population of Australia the likely result would be that the English are still the biggest minority in the population followed by the Irish. Third in line would likely be a toss-up between the Scots and Italians.

Noting the difference between the ethnic make-up of Australia versus the USA the long-term consequences of distance from sources of immigrants combined with that old practice of favouring immigrants from the British Isles over those sourced from foreign countries really shows up, don't they?

As for Canada well, as we all know the French were there ahead of the English.

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SteveFoerster
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Re: Would America Survive a Civil War?

Post by SteveFoerster » Sun Nov 14, 2021 5:12 am

neverfail wrote:
Sat Nov 13, 2021 6:11 pm
Congratulations Steve. Wishing you and betrothed a life of future contentment.

For a footloose Brit to settle down in any of Canada's four western provinces appears to be a good choice. There you gain virtually all of the advantages of settling in the United States but minus having to dodge all of the flying bullets in a country where every homicidal maniac has a constitutional guarantee of the right to gun ownership. :D
Dodging all the bullets is good exercise, though.
neverfail wrote:
Sat Nov 13, 2021 6:11 pm
Milo: some years ago I recall some university into the US investigated where the immigrant ancestors of the Americans of today came from - to determine the exact ethnic mix of the USA. They discovered that by far the biggest minority of 'ethnic " Americans were the Germans - Steve Foerster's crowd :) .
Not really. My mom's side were all British isles. And my dad converted to Anglicanism as soon as he was out of the nest, basically. The surname is basically the only connection. (Not that there's anything wrong with it, just clarifying.)

Anyway, this isn't surprising, as what is now the U.S. has been a destination for German emigres for centuries. Even at the time of the American Revolution, as many newspapers in the colonies were printed in German as English.

Harry Turtledove has an alternate history story set in a world in which the colonies remain separate after winning independence, and in it, Pennsylvania's official language is German.
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Re: Would America Survive a Civil War?

Post by SteveFoerster » Sun Nov 14, 2021 5:13 am

neverfail wrote:
Sat Nov 13, 2021 6:11 pm
Congratulations Steve. Wishing you and betrothed a life of future contentment.
Thank you!
neverfail wrote:
Sat Nov 13, 2021 6:11 pm
For a footloose Brit to settle down in any of Canada's four western provinces appears to be a good choice. There you gain virtually all of the advantages of settling in the United States but minus having to dodge all of the flying bullets in a country where every homicidal maniac has a constitutional guarantee of the right to gun ownership. :D
Dodging all the bullets is good exercise, though.
neverfail wrote:
Sat Nov 13, 2021 6:11 pm
Milo: some years ago I recall some university into the US investigated where the immigrant ancestors of the Americans of today came from - to determine the exact ethnic mix of the USA. They discovered that by far the biggest minority of 'ethnic " Americans were the Germans - Steve Foerster's crowd :) .
Not really. My mom's side were all British isles (English and Scottish). And my dad converted to Anglicanism as soon as he was out of the nest, basically. The surname is basically the only connection. (Not that there's anything wrong with it, just clarifying.)

Anyway, this isn't surprising, as what is now the U.S. has been a destination for German emigres for centuries. Even at the time of the American Revolution, as many newspapers in the colonies were printed in German as English.

Harry Turtledove has an alternate history story set in a world in which the colonies remain separate after winning independence, and in it, Pennsylvania's official language is German.
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Doc
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Re: Would America Survive a Civil War?

Post by Doc » Sun Nov 14, 2021 8:18 am

Milo wrote:
Sat Nov 13, 2021 5:18 pm
neverfail wrote:
Sat Nov 13, 2021 2:46 pm
SteveFoerster wrote:
Sat Nov 13, 2021 12:26 pm

My fiancée is Canadian, from B.C. Her dad's parents were English and came over to Victoria ("Little England", apparently) some time around then, I gather.
Congratulations Steve. Wishing you and betrothed a life of future contentment.

For a footloose Brit to settle down in any of Canada's four western provinces appears to be a good choice. There you gain virtually all of the advantages of settling in the United States but minus having to dodge all of the flying bullets in a country where every homicidal maniac has a constitutional guarantee of the right to gun ownership. :D
My guess would be that Australia has their own version of this!

And congratulations Steve.

Yes Congratulations Steve !

One question are you getting married in Canada or in the US?
“"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros

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Apollonius
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Re: Would America Survive a Civil War?

Post by Apollonius » Sun Nov 14, 2021 8:39 am

neverfail wrote:
Sat Nov 13, 2021 2:46 pm
SteveFoerster wrote:
Sat Nov 13, 2021 12:26 pm

My fiancée is Canadian, from B.C. Her dad's parents were English and came over to Victoria ("Little England", apparently) some time around then, I gather.
Congratulations Steve. Wishing you and betrothed a life of future contentment.

For a footloose Brit to settle down in any of Canada's four western provinces appears to be a good choice. There you gain virtually all of the advantages of settling in the United States but minus having to dodge all of the flying bullets in a country where every homicidal maniac has a constitutional guarantee of the right to gun ownership. :D

As someone who actually resides in British Columbia my security concerns are rather different from what you've expressed here.

I live in an isolated area. If there was trouble, there is very little possibility of help by dialing 911. It would take the RCMP a long time to get here. I'm somewhat envious of Americans' right to protect themselves.



And as long as we're on the topic of Canadians whose ancestors were involved in war, and even though we're a little late for Remembrance Day allow me to tell you about my father:


My father was something of a war hero, although getting him to talk about his experiences in WWII was like trying to breach the walls of Constantinople without canons.

In the summer of 1939 life in this province was pretty desperate for a lot of people. But Dad had a plan. He saw what was coming and decided to join the navy. In those days you went to the recruiting office in Esquimault (near Victoria) and they took you over to one of their destroyers anchored in the harbour. They asked if you could swim. If you said yes, they pushed you off the deck and got you to swim around the ship. If you were successful, you were in the Royal Canadian Navy.

Shortly after enlisting the war broke out. Many Canadians ultimately served on British warships. In 1941 my father was on the Warspite, which received more battle honours than any other ship in the Royal Navy. Its story is interesting:


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Warspite_(03)

HMS Warspite was a Queen Elizabeth-class battleship built for the Royal Navy during the early 1910s. Completed during the First World War in 1915, she was assigned to the Grand Fleet and participated in the Battle of Jutland. Other than that battle, and the inconclusive Action of 19 August, her service during the war generally consisted of routine patrols and training in the North Sea. During the interwar period the ship was deployed in the Atlantic Ocean and the Mediterranean Sea, often serving a flagship, and was thoroughly modernized during the mid-1930s.

During the Second World War, Warspite was involved in the Norwegian Campaign in early 1940 and was transferred to the Mediterranean later that year where the ship participated in fleet actions against the Royal Italian Navy (Regia Marina) while also escorting convoys and bombarding Italian troops ashore. She was damaged by German aircraft during the Battle of Crete in mid-1941 and required six months of repairs in the United States. They were completed after the start of the Pacific War in December and the ship sailed across the Pacific to join the Eastern Fleet in the Indian Ocean in early 1942. Warspite returned home in mid-1943 to conduct naval gunfire support as part of Force H during the Italian campaign. She was badly damaged by German radio-controlled glider bombs during the landings at Salerno and spent most of the next year under repair. The ship bombarded German positions during the Normandy landings and on Walcheren Island in 1944, despite not being fully repaired. These actions earned her the most battle honours ever awarded to an individual ship in the Royal Navy. For this and other reasons, Warspite gained the nickname the "Grand Old Lady" after a comment made by Admiral Sir Andrew Cunningham in 1943 while she was his flagship.


My father was wounded in the German dive bomber attack which occurred during the evacuation of Crete described in article. The ship struggled to Alexandria and was towed/pushed through the Suez Canal across the Indian Ocean and ultimately all the way back to Esquimault, British Columbia where it underwent repairs, just in time to be almost ready for action in the aftermath of the Japanese attacks on Hong Kong, Singapore, and Hawaii. The Warspite then sailed down the coast, through the Panama Canal and over to England for more repairs, ultimately seeing action again in both the Mediterranean and the D-Day invasion of France.



My father had a twin brother who was eventually drafted into the army. He took part in the Dieppe 'raid' of August 1942, in which Canadian forces were used to see how good German defences in Festung Europa were. They were pretty good. Like most of the others, he was shot up, but he was lucky enough to come through it alive. He was evacuated but was never the same since.

He suffered from what we today would call post-traumatic stress syndrome and treated himself with alcohol. He lived in Vancouver's notorious Downtown Eastside. We saw him every time we visited Vancouver and my father would use this opportunity to take us all out for dinner at some semi-fancy restaurant. Uncle Jack died in 1973. There were no memorials on steps of the then B.C. Provincial Courthouse (now the Vancouver Art Gallery).


(The last admittedly rather snide sentence refers to the disgraceful conduct of 'First Nations' agitators and their friends in the media with respect to the discovery of 'unmarked graves' which prompted Justin Trudeau to fly the flag at half mast for six months out of respect for those Native children who died of natural causes while attending residential schools).

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Re: Would America Survive a Civil War?

Post by SteveFoerster » Sun Nov 14, 2021 4:45 pm

Doc wrote:
Sun Nov 14, 2021 8:18 am
Milo wrote:
Sat Nov 13, 2021 5:18 pm
neverfail wrote:
Sat Nov 13, 2021 2:46 pm
SteveFoerster wrote:
Sat Nov 13, 2021 12:26 pm

My fiancée is Canadian, from B.C. Her dad's parents were English and came over to Victoria ("Little England", apparently) some time around then, I gather.
Congratulations Steve. Wishing you and betrothed a life of future contentment.

For a footloose Brit to settle down in any of Canada's four western provinces appears to be a good choice. There you gain virtually all of the advantages of settling in the United States but minus having to dodge all of the flying bullets in a country where every homicidal maniac has a constitutional guarantee of the right to gun ownership. :D
My guess would be that Australia has their own version of this!

And congratulations Steve.

Yes Congratulations Steve !

One question are you getting married in Canada or in the US?
The U.S., as our moms are bother pretty elderly and as it happens it will be a lot easier for her mom to make the trip than mine.
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Re: Would America Survive a Civil War?

Post by Doc » Sun Nov 14, 2021 7:28 pm

SteveFoerster wrote:
Sun Nov 14, 2021 4:45 pm
Doc wrote:
Sun Nov 14, 2021 8:18 am
Milo wrote:
Sat Nov 13, 2021 5:18 pm
neverfail wrote:
Sat Nov 13, 2021 2:46 pm
SteveFoerster wrote:
Sat Nov 13, 2021 12:26 pm

My fiancée is Canadian, from B.C. Her dad's parents were English and came over to Victoria ("Little England", apparently) some time around then, I gather.
Congratulations Steve. Wishing you and betrothed a life of future contentment.

For a footloose Brit to settle down in any of Canada's four western provinces appears to be a good choice. There you gain virtually all of the advantages of settling in the United States but minus having to dodge all of the flying bullets in a country where every homicidal maniac has a constitutional guarantee of the right to gun ownership. :D
My guess would be that Australia has their own version of this!

And congratulations Steve.

Yes Congratulations Steve !

One question are you getting married in Canada or in the US?
The U.S., as our moms are bother pretty elderly and as it happens it will be a lot easier for her mom to make the trip than mine.
Understood. I asked because the US border just opened. So I am thinking you may have had a long wait.
“"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros

neverfail
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Re: Would America Survive a Civil War?

Post by neverfail » Sun Nov 14, 2021 11:24 pm

Apollonius wrote:
Sun Nov 14, 2021 8:39 am

In the summer of 1939 life in this province was pretty desperate for a lot of people. But Dad had a plan. He saw what was coming and decided to join the navy. In those days you went to the recruiting office in Esquimault (near Victoria) and they took you over to one of their destroyers anchored in the harbour. They asked if you could swim. If you said yes, they pushed you off the deck and got you to swim around the ship. If you were successful, you were in the Royal Canadian Navy.
Did the RCN give you a set of dry clothing to wear when you got out of the water so that you would not catch a death of cold?
Shortly after enlisting the war broke out. Many Canadians ultimately served on British warships.
So much like Australia. One of our neighbours in the Sydney suburb where I grew up claimed to have served on the British warship that cornered the pocket battleship Admiral Graf Spee in the Plate River estury December 1939. After the Germans scuttled the ship off Montevideo, Uruguay, he and the crew were allowed shore leave in Buenos Aries. He told me that there was so much anti-British ill-feeling in Argentina at the time that as soon as the BA bus drivers saw their British navy uniforms "they would refuse to let us board their buses".


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Warspite_(03)
HMS Warspite was a Queen Elizabeth-class battleship built for the Royal Navy during the early 1910s. Completed during the First World War in 1915, she was assigned to the Grand Fleet and participated in the Battle of Jutland. Other than that battle, and the inconclusive Action of 19 August, her service during the war generally consisted of routine patrols and training in the North Sea. During the interwar period the ship was deployed in the Atlantic Ocean and the Mediterranean Sea, often serving a flagship, and was thoroughly modernized during the mid-1930s.

She was badly damaged by German radio-controlled glider bombs during the landings at Salerno and spent most of the next year under repair.

Apollonius
Please pardon me for excising that reference out of the inserted quote about the otherwise fascinating adventures of your father's ship. I had no idea until I read it that the Germans during World War Two had invented such a device as a radio controlled glider bomb. It sounds to me just like the somewhat primitave predecessor of a modern drone bomb.

By 1945 in the Third Reich they had even invented a jet fighter plane and had put two squadrons of them into the air war for a fortnight before the war ended - too late! The planes had to be grounded when the airfield they were based at ran out of fuel - by then all German oil refineries that had not been bombed to rubble had fallen into Allied hands. But jet fighter aircraft was a technology from out of the second half of the 20th century but in use in Germany while still in the first half of that century. The sheer inventiveness of Germans (ahead of their time?) moves you to wonder whether the Nazi's were right after all and the Germans deserved to be considered the master race, doesn't it?

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Re: Would America Survive a Civil War?

Post by neverfail » Sun Nov 14, 2021 11:32 pm

Apollonius & Milo;

In light of the title to this discussion; as our two representative Canadains I would like to throw in the question "would Canada survive a civil war"?

May I point out that a regionally based civil war would have to follow a different course than one in the US. Canada is a very "linear" sort of country. Its provinces lined up in a row (half of them with southern borders that are also sections of Canada's international border with the US) remind me of a row of dominoes. The USA by contrast has "depth": layer and layer of padding from north to south.

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Re: Would America Survive a Civil War?

Post by Doc » Mon Nov 15, 2021 9:13 am

Unless Biden federalizes the OK national guard the OK guard is under the command of the governor of OK.

Little known fact: When Lincoln nationalized the VA militia is when Robert E Lee resigned his commission in the US army.

Second little known fact. Arlington National Cemetery was once Robert E Lee's home. The union General in charge of burying Union Soldiers seized it, and buried his son literally at Robert E Lee's front door. The grave is still there today.

Pentagon Responds to Oklahoma National Guard’s Rejections of Vaccine Mandate
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Pentagon Responds to Oklahoma National Guard’s Rejections of Vaccine Mandate
Pentagon Press Secretary John Kirby speaks during a press briefing at the Pentagon in Arlington, Va., on Sept. 3, 2021. (Drew Angerer/Getty Images)

The U.S. Department of Defense indicated it will respond to Oklahoma Gov. Kevin Stitt after his state’s National Guard suggested it would reject a Pentagon COVID-19 vaccine mandate for all service members.

“We are aware of the memo issued by the Oklahoma Adjutant General regarding COVID vaccination for Guardsmen and the governor’s letter requesting exemption. We will respond to the governor appropriately,” Pentagon spokesman John Kirby said in a statement to news outlets on late Saturday.

Without elaborating how the Defense Department (DOD) would respond, Kirby said Pentagon chief Lloyd Austin “believes that a vaccinated force is a more ready force,” and that it’s “why he has ordered mandatory vaccines for the total force, and that includes our National Guard, who contribute significantly to national missions at home and abroad.”

Kirby’s remarks came after the newly appointed Oklahoma National Guard commander, Army Brig. Gen. Thomas Mancino, issued a Nov. 11 memorandum indicating he would decline to implement the Pentagon’s vaccine mandate.

The first military vaccine mandate deadline is Nov. 2, although each branch has set different deadlines by which members should get the vaccine for the CCP (Chinese Communist Party) virus, which causes the disease COVID-19. The Pentagon set a June 30, 2022, deadline for all Army reservists and the National Guard to get the shot, according to a news release from the federal Military Health System issued in September.

Mancino, in his memo, wrote, “I hereby order that no Oklahoma Guardsmen be required to take the COVID-19 Vaccine, notwithstanding any other Federal requirement.”
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“Oklahoma Command’s will continue to process Federal vaccine waivers in accordance with DoD policy,” he added. “Additionally, no negative administrative or legal action will be taken against Guardsmen who refuse the COVID-19 Vaccine.”

Stitt, a Republican, previously asked Austin and other Pentagon leaders for waivers regarding the COVID-19 vaccine mandate, and he’s still waiting for a decision, Macino’s memo continued to say.
John Kirby
Pentagon Press Secretary John Kirby speaks during a press briefing at the Pentagon in Arlington, Va., on Sept. 3, 2021. (Drew Angerer/Getty Images)

The memo was issued just a day after he was appointed Oklahoma Army and Air National Guard, replacing Gen. Michael Thompson, who had been a proponent of COVID-19 vaccines and said Guard members would face consequences.

“The governor had been exploring making a change for a number of months, and (Gen.) Thompson had submitted his resignation,” said Stitt spokesperson Carly Atchison in a statement to The Epoch Times. “Once the governor selected (Gen.) Mancino as his replacement, the governor decided to move up the timeline.”

The Pentagon hasn’t immediately responded to a request for comment.

Meanwhile, the DOD’s vaccine mandate for service members has faced numerous challenges in court, including one filed earlier this month by a group of Navy SEALs who argued that the Biden administration denied them religious exemptions to the shot.

Their complaint, filed in the U.S. District Court in the Northern District of Texas last week, argued that the plaintiffs sought a religious exemption to the Pentagon’s vaccine mandate, but were denied the “fundamental right to the free exercise of religion and protection from agency action,” which they said “is unlawful, contrary to law, and arbitrary and capricious.”
“"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros

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