Jewish Settlements in the West Bank

Discussion of current events
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cassowary
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Re: Jewish Settlements in the West Bank

Post by cassowary » Fri Nov 19, 2021 11:04 pm

SteveFoerster wrote:
Fri Nov 19, 2021 5:05 pm
cassowary wrote:
Wed Nov 17, 2021 4:57 pm
SteveFoerster wrote:
Wed Nov 17, 2021 6:42 am
cassowary wrote:
Wed Nov 17, 2021 6:20 am
Sertorio wrote:
Wed Nov 17, 2021 1:48 am
cassowary wrote:
Wed Nov 17, 2021 12:04 am

But I also grew up in a multi cultural society mixing with Hindus, Muslims and Buddhists, most of whom too their faiths seriously. Unlike the foreign policy crowd in Washington, whose secularity blinded them, we grew up undesrtanding how important religion is in making policies. This can range into attempting to introduce democracy into a deeply religions Afghan population and accepting Muslim immigrants from such countries.
Religions are curses on people. Ethics is important in making policies, and far too many religious people are deeply unethical...
Look at the evil that you atheists did. People like Mao, Hitler, Stalin , Fatty Kim, Pol pot.
This will quickly become a nonsense conversation. Historically, evil seems to be evenly dispersed among nontheists and theists of every variety alike.
But Steve, I look at the people responsible for most deaths in the last century. They were all Socialists and atheists. That’s my evidence.
All socialists are atheists.
All socialists are evil.
Therefore, all atheists are evil.

Asking for an explanation of what is wrong with this syllogism could be on the final exam in an introductory logic course.
But that's not the argument I was making. Nor did I say that all atheists are evil. What I said was that without fear of divine punishments for murder, atheists are less restrained. That was my argument. As empirical evidence, I pointed out that the big killers of the 20th century were presumably atheists because they were officially Socialists. Socialists are materialists who don't believe in God.
cassowary wrote:
Wed Nov 17, 2021 4:57 pm
One explanation of this is that without fear of divine punishment in the next world if not this one, people are less inhibited to do evil.
If that were true, then one would be able to demonstrate a causal relationship between atheism and criminal behaviour. And before you point to a handful of cherry picked historical figures, remember that the plural of "anecdote" is not "data".
I admit that I don't have data corelating criminal behavior and atheism. But there is data on regular church going and crime. The regular churchgoers, whom I presume are theists, commit less crime according to a study done by Manchester University.

Researchers found regular church goers would not even think of committing petty crimes like littering and are less inclined to anti social behaviour.

Academics at Manchester University also discovered people of faith have a positive impact on people around them who do not share their beliefs.

The study authors claim their findings are not an endorsement of organised religion but instead show people of faith are good role models.
The Imp :D

Jim the Moron
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Re: Jewish Settlements in the West Bank

Post by Jim the Moron » Sat Nov 20, 2021 1:18 am

SteveFoerster wrote:
Fri Nov 19, 2021 5:05 pm
cassowary wrote:
Wed Nov 17, 2021 4:57 pm
SteveFoerster wrote:
Wed Nov 17, 2021 6:42 am
cassowary wrote:
Wed Nov 17, 2021 6:20 am
Sertorio wrote:
Wed Nov 17, 2021 1:48 am
cassowary wrote:
Wed Nov 17, 2021 12:04 am

But I also grew up in a multi cultural society mixing with Hindus, Muslims and Buddhists, most of whom too their faiths seriously. Unlike the foreign policy crowd in Washington, whose secularity blinded them, we grew up undesrtanding how important religion is in making policies. This can range into attempting to introduce democracy into a deeply religions Afghan population and accepting Muslim immigrants from such countries.
Religions are curses on people. Ethics is important in making policies, and far too many religious people are deeply unethical...
Look at the evil that you atheists did. People like Mao, Hitler, Stalin , Fatty Kim, Pol pot.
This will quickly become a nonsense conversation. Historically, evil seems to be evenly dispersed among nontheists and theists of every variety alike.
But Steve, I look at the people responsible for most deaths in the last century. They were all Socialists and atheists. That’s my evidence.
All socialists are atheists.
All socialists are evil.
Therefore, all atheists are evil.

Asking for an explanation of what is wrong with this syllogism could be on the final exam in an introductory logic course.
cassowary wrote:
Wed Nov 17, 2021 4:57 pm
One explanation of this is that without fear of divine punishment in the next world if not this one, people are less inhibited to do evil.
If that were true, then one would be able to demonstrate a causal relationship between atheism and criminal behaviour. And before you point to a handful of cherry picked historical figures, remember that the plural of "anecdote" is not "data".

". . . the plural of anecdote is not data." Good one, SteveF - more than one poster here should be mindful of that.

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cassowary
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Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2016 11:30 pm

Re: Jewish Settlements in the West Bank

Post by cassowary » Sat Nov 20, 2021 1:29 am

Jim the Moron wrote:
Sat Nov 20, 2021 1:18 am
SteveFoerster wrote:
Fri Nov 19, 2021 5:05 pm
cassowary wrote:
Wed Nov 17, 2021 4:57 pm
SteveFoerster wrote:
Wed Nov 17, 2021 6:42 am
cassowary wrote:
Wed Nov 17, 2021 6:20 am
Sertorio wrote:
Wed Nov 17, 2021 1:48 am


Religions are curses on people. Ethics is important in making policies, and far too many religious people are deeply unethical...
Look at the evil that you atheists did. People like Mao, Hitler, Stalin , Fatty Kim, Pol pot.
This will quickly become a nonsense conversation. Historically, evil seems to be evenly dispersed among nontheists and theists of every variety alike.
But Steve, I look at the people responsible for most deaths in the last century. They were all Socialists and atheists. That’s my evidence.
All socialists are atheists.
All socialists are evil.
Therefore, all atheists are evil.

Asking for an explanation of what is wrong with this syllogism could be on the final exam in an introductory logic course.
cassowary wrote:
Wed Nov 17, 2021 4:57 pm
One explanation of this is that without fear of divine punishment in the next world if not this one, people are less inhibited to do evil.
If that were true, then one would be able to demonstrate a causal relationship between atheism and criminal behaviour. And before you point to a handful of cherry picked historical figures, remember that the plural of "anecdote" is not "data".

". . . the plural of anecdote is not data." Good one, SteveF - more than one poster here should be mindful of that.
Well, I have cited a study from Manchester the correlation between church attendance and less crime.
The Imp :D

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SteveFoerster
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Re: Jewish Settlements in the West Bank

Post by SteveFoerster » Sat Nov 20, 2021 12:26 pm

At a societal level, there's a correlation between religiosity and higher crime:

http://moses.creighton.edu/JRS/2005/2005-11.pdf
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neverfail
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Re: Jewish Settlements in the West Bank

Post by neverfail » Sat Nov 20, 2021 3:57 pm

..........................................................................................................................
Casso & SF: you two quibble over the relationship between religousity and crime but does not the theft another people's land (still continuing today) to carve out the Jewish state constitute a crime?

Jim the Moron
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Re: Jewish Settlements in the West Bank

Post by Jim the Moron » Sat Nov 20, 2021 5:11 pm

neverfail wrote:
Sat Nov 20, 2021 3:57 pm
..........................................................................................................................
Casso & SF: you two quibble over the relationship between religousity and crime but does not the theft another people's land (still continuing today) to carve out the Jewish state constitute a crime?

Arab squatters in the West Bank do not own the land they occupy.

neverfail
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Re: Jewish Settlements in the West Bank

Post by neverfail » Sun Nov 21, 2021 11:32 am

Jim the Moron wrote:
Sat Nov 20, 2021 5:11 pm
neverfail wrote:
Sat Nov 20, 2021 3:57 pm
..........................................................................................................................
Casso & SF: you two quibble over the relationship between religousity and crime but does not the theft another people's land (still continuing today) to carve out the Jewish state constitute a crime?

Arab squatters in the West Bank do not own the land they occupy.
Then WHO bloody-well owns it then; abscentee Jewish landlords?

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SteveFoerster
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Re: Jewish Settlements in the West Bank

Post by SteveFoerster » Sun Nov 21, 2021 1:12 pm

It's an interesting question. What land ownership can be considered 100% legitimate in a world where nearly every plot has been stolen time and time again? I don't see an easy answer, although I'll admit that I've thought about it a bit since property rights are one of the pillars of libertarian theory.
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neverfail
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Re: Jewish Settlements in the West Bank

Post by neverfail » Mon Nov 22, 2021 3:20 am

SteveFoerster wrote:
Sun Nov 21, 2021 1:12 pm
It's an interesting question. What land ownership can be considered 100% legitimate in a world where nearly every plot has been stolen time and time again? I don't see an easy answer, although I'll admit that I've thought about it a bit since property rights are one of the pillars of libertarian theory.
That remark only muddies the water SF. Unhelpful comment!

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SteveFoerster
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Re: Jewish Settlements in the West Bank

Post by SteveFoerster » Mon Nov 22, 2021 11:02 am

neverfail wrote:
Mon Nov 22, 2021 3:20 am
SteveFoerster wrote:
Sun Nov 21, 2021 1:12 pm
It's an interesting question. What land ownership can be considered 100% legitimate in a world where nearly every plot has been stolen time and time again? I don't see an easy answer, although I'll admit that I've thought about it a bit since property rights are one of the pillars of libertarian theory.
That remark only muddies the water SF. Unhelpful comment!
That the waters are inherently muddy essentially was my comment.
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