Jewish Settlements in the West Bank

Discussion of current events
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dagbay
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Re: Jewish Settlements in the West Bank

Post by dagbay » Thu Nov 18, 2021 11:40 am

Sertorio wrote:
Thu Nov 18, 2021 2:21 am
cassowary wrote:
Wed Nov 17, 2021 4:57 pm

One explanation of this is that without fear of divine punishment in the next world if not this one, people are less inhibited to do evil.
A god who permanently needs to punish his creation maybe would need a refreshing course on "creation"...

If people spent some time actually thinking about the universe and its scale, and about us and our microscopic dimension, they would realize that our concerns with a creative divinity are quite ridiculous. We do have a place in the Universe but definitely not the one we seem to think... And if you wonder why we are here, my answer is simply to procreate and give a chance to evolution, as part of the evolution of the Universe itself... Once you procreate you may die, because there is nothing else the Universe needs from you... Of course, while you live you may do your best to make your environment a pleasing one, and make the life of our species and of the rest of the planet as nice as possible. But your cosmic mission is a very limited one indeed...And making war is definitely not a goal we should aspire to...
Yet nature all around us is at a constant war of survival
I'd rather be diving or flying alas for now I am on terra firma.

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Sertorio
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Re: Jewish Settlements in the West Bank

Post by Sertorio » Thu Nov 18, 2021 1:18 pm

dagbay wrote:
Thu Nov 18, 2021 11:40 am
Sertorio wrote:
Thu Nov 18, 2021 2:21 am
cassowary wrote:
Wed Nov 17, 2021 4:57 pm

One explanation of this is that without fear of divine punishment in the next world if not this one, people are less inhibited to do evil.
A god who permanently needs to punish his creation maybe would need a refreshing course on "creation"...

If people spent some time actually thinking about the universe and its scale, and about us and our microscopic dimension, they would realize that our concerns with a creative divinity are quite ridiculous. We do have a place in the Universe but definitely not the one we seem to think... And if you wonder why we are here, my answer is simply to procreate and give a chance to evolution, as part of the evolution of the Universe itself... Once you procreate you may die, because there is nothing else the Universe needs from you... Of course, while you live you may do your best to make your environment a pleasing one, and make the life of our species and of the rest of the planet as nice as possible. But your cosmic mission is a very limited one indeed...And making war is definitely not a goal we should aspire to...
Yet nature all around us is at a constant war of survival
Struggle by non-rational beings may be seen as part of evolution. Deliberate destruction, as is often the case with the human species, is unethical and a threat to the ecological equilibrium. We are not smart enough to be able to foresee the consequences of our (often destructive) actions, and therefore we must abstain from doing them. For the same reason we should abstain from all genetic engineering, as the goals we are trying to achieve and seem good to us may be harmful to natural evolution. Our intelligence together with our ignorance are a severe risk to us and to the future of our species.

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cassowary
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Re: Jewish Settlements in the West Bank

Post by cassowary » Thu Nov 18, 2021 3:30 pm

dagbay wrote:
Thu Nov 18, 2021 11:40 am
Sertorio wrote:
Thu Nov 18, 2021 2:21 am
cassowary wrote:
Wed Nov 17, 2021 4:57 pm

One explanation of this is that without fear of divine punishment in the next world if not this one, people are less inhibited to do evil.
A god who permanently needs to punish his creation maybe would need a refreshing course on "creation"...

If people spent some time actually thinking about the universe and its scale, and about us and our microscopic dimension, they would realize that our concerns with a creative divinity are quite ridiculous. We do have a place in the Universe but definitely not the one we seem to think... And if you wonder why we are here, my answer is simply to procreate and give a chance to evolution, as part of the evolution of the Universe itself... Once you procreate you may die, because there is nothing else the Universe needs from you... Of course, while you live you may do your best to make your environment a pleasing one, and make the life of our species and of the rest of the planet as nice as possible. But your cosmic mission is a very limited one indeed...And making war is definitely not a goal we should aspire to...
Yet nature all around us is at a constant war of survival
Exactly, and I might add, nature produces inequality.
The Imp :D

neverfail
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Re: Jewish Settlements in the West Bank

Post by neverfail » Thu Nov 18, 2021 7:13 pm

cassowary wrote:
Thu Nov 18, 2021 3:30 pm
dagbay wrote:
Thu Nov 18, 2021 11:40 am

Yet nature all around us is at a constant war of survival
Exactly, and I might add, nature produces inequality.
No, it eventually gets restored to a new equilibrium.

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cassowary
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Re: Jewish Settlements in the West Bank

Post by cassowary » Thu Nov 18, 2021 8:26 pm

Sertorio wrote:
Thu Nov 18, 2021 2:21 am
cassowary wrote:
Wed Nov 17, 2021 4:57 pm

One explanation of this is that without fear of divine punishment in the next world if not this one, people are less inhibited to do evil.
A god who permanently needs to punish his creation maybe would need a refreshing course on "creation"...

If people spent some time actually thinking about the universe and its scale, and about us and our microscopic dimension, they would realize that our concerns with a creative divinity are quite ridiculous. We do have a place in the Universe but definitely not the one we seem to think... And if you wonder why we are here, my answer is simply to procreate and give a chance to evolution, as part of the evolution of the Universe itself... Once you procreate you may die, because there is nothing else the Universe needs from you... Of course, while you live you may do your best to make your environment a pleasing one, and make the life of our species and of the rest of the planet as nice as possible. But your cosmic mission is a very limited one indeed...And making war is definitely not a goal we should aspire to...
Whatever the truth in your beliefs, I am more interested in the results. I have given you a logical reason and actual evidence to prove my assertion that with atheism, there is a greater likelihood of people doing bad things like mass murder.

Without the fear or divine punishments, atheists become unrestrained. Actual evidence I gave are the crimes by Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao, Hitler etc.

......................................................................................

Since you are an atheist, let me ask you. What is your basis of morality? How do you decide what is good or evil? Right or wrong?

Without God, there is no good or evil. To you atheists, God is man made. But God in all traditional religions is the source of teaching us what is good and evil. Thus if He does not exist, then good and evil does not exist because they are also man made. Man can decide what is good and evil. So Hitler decided that it was good that Jews got exterminated. Stalin decided that it was good that the Kulaks got exterminated. Xi decided that genocide of the Uighurs is good.

Nietsche understood this. He wrote that God my be dead but his ghost lives on. The "ghost" he meant was Christian morality - the western man's idea of right and wrong. He was disdainful of you Socialists because your goal of equality in human society has Christian roots. It did not exist in Greco Roman philosohpy which you seem to be fond of. Aristotle thought that some men were born to be slaves.

The Hindus, like the ancient Mesopotamians had a divinely sanctioned caste system. So no equality there either. But Christian ethics gave birth to the idea of equality. We are all made in God's image and so rich or poor, we should be treated equally. We have a soul which puts us above animals.

So, how do you decide what is good and evil? Shall we turn to mother nature for our guide? See how we evolved. This will lower our self image from the Christian one. There is nothing special about humans for without a soul, we are just another animal.

If we are just another animal, then we must abide by the laws of evolution. Christian morality of helping the weak is mistaken. Let the weak die so that humanity evolves into something stronger, healthier, more intelligent.

The weak goes extinct. Why have a welfare state to care for the weaker members? Let them die of illness and starvation. Only the fittest should survive. LIfe in nature is a constant struggle for survival where only the strong survives. So genocide is part of nature too. Let the stronger races wipe out the weaker ones and take over their lands. Give them more living space to multiply -Lebensraum. This was Adolph Hitler's atheistic thinking.

Yes, atheism has much to answer for.
The Imp :D

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Sertorio
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Re: Jewish Settlements in the West Bank

Post by Sertorio » Fri Nov 19, 2021 1:38 am

cassowary wrote:
Thu Nov 18, 2021 8:26 pm

Since you are an atheist, let me ask you. What is your basis of morality? How do you decide what is good or evil? Right or wrong?

Without God, there is no good or evil.
I don't care about morality, I care about ethics. And what is ethically right is what preserves the ecological equilibrium, what does away with violence and cruelty, what enables us to live happily and in harmony with eachother. Evil is everything which furthers the opposite. I certainly do not need any divinity to strive for this, because this is what is rational.

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Sertorio
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Re: Jewish Settlements in the West Bank

Post by Sertorio » Fri Nov 19, 2021 1:42 am

cassowary wrote:
Thu Nov 18, 2021 8:26 pm
There is nothing special about humans for without a soul, we are just another animal.
There is no soul, there is consciousness, which cannot be detached from our body. And yes, we are an animal, but a rational animal, which can develop a sense of ethics and live according to it for the good of us all, rational or irrational.

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cassowary
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Re: Jewish Settlements in the West Bank

Post by cassowary » Fri Nov 19, 2021 2:59 am

Sertorio wrote:
Fri Nov 19, 2021 1:38 am
cassowary wrote:
Thu Nov 18, 2021 8:26 pm

Since you are an atheist, let me ask you. What is your basis of morality? How do you decide what is good or evil? Right or wrong?

Without God, there is no good or evil.
I don't care about morality, I care about ethics. And what is ethically right is what preserves the ecological equilibrium, what does away with violence and cruelty, what enables us to live happily and in harmony with eachother. Evil is everything which furthers the opposite. I certainly do not need any divinity to strive for this, because this is what is rational.
You are splitting hairs. No moralilty but you have ethics? Why is it that atheists were the worst killers in the last century?
The Imp :D

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cassowary
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Re: Jewish Settlements in the West Bank

Post by cassowary » Fri Nov 19, 2021 3:00 am

Sertorio wrote:
Fri Nov 19, 2021 1:42 am
cassowary wrote:
Thu Nov 18, 2021 8:26 pm
There is nothing special about humans for without a soul, we are just another animal.
There is no soul, there is consciousness, which cannot be detached from our body. And yes, we are an animal, but a rational animal, which can develop a sense of ethics and live according to it for the good of us all, rational or irrational.
Different people have different ethics. So how do you decide what is right and wrong?
The Imp :D

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SteveFoerster
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Re: Jewish Settlements in the West Bank

Post by SteveFoerster » Fri Nov 19, 2021 5:05 pm

cassowary wrote:
Wed Nov 17, 2021 4:57 pm
SteveFoerster wrote:
Wed Nov 17, 2021 6:42 am
cassowary wrote:
Wed Nov 17, 2021 6:20 am
Sertorio wrote:
Wed Nov 17, 2021 1:48 am
cassowary wrote:
Wed Nov 17, 2021 12:04 am

But I also grew up in a multi cultural society mixing with Hindus, Muslims and Buddhists, most of whom too their faiths seriously. Unlike the foreign policy crowd in Washington, whose secularity blinded them, we grew up undesrtanding how important religion is in making policies. This can range into attempting to introduce democracy into a deeply religions Afghan population and accepting Muslim immigrants from such countries.
Religions are curses on people. Ethics is important in making policies, and far too many religious people are deeply unethical...
Look at the evil that you atheists did. People like Mao, Hitler, Stalin , Fatty Kim, Pol pot.
This will quickly become a nonsense conversation. Historically, evil seems to be evenly dispersed among nontheists and theists of every variety alike.
But Steve, I look at the people responsible for most deaths in the last century. They were all Socialists and atheists. That’s my evidence.
All socialists are atheists.
All socialists are evil.
Therefore, all atheists are evil.

Asking for an explanation of what is wrong with this syllogism could be on the final exam in an introductory logic course.
cassowary wrote:
Wed Nov 17, 2021 4:57 pm
One explanation of this is that without fear of divine punishment in the next world if not this one, people are less inhibited to do evil.
If that were true, then one would be able to demonstrate a causal relationship between atheism and criminal behaviour. And before you point to a handful of cherry picked historical figures, remember that the plural of "anecdote" is not "data".
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