Jewish Settlements in the West Bank

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cassowary
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Re: Jewish Settlements in the West Bank

Post by cassowary » Wed Nov 17, 2021 12:04 am

neverfail wrote:
Mon Nov 15, 2021 10:20 pm
cassowary wrote:
Mon Nov 15, 2021 9:25 pm

I think we all tend to base our opinions on our personal experiences. So perhaps the Jews in the Washington area are secular and get along with Steve, thus giving him the impression that its the same for all time and places. Things were different in the past and are still different in other parts of the world.

By now, most Jews are pretty secular and so are many gentiles in the advanced countries. So they get along quite well. Race, religion and language are always fault lines in any society. In my society, these fault lines are still moving and we are always afraid of earthquakes in our society.

If you go to the Middle East, you will find the gap between the Muslims and our modern societies is still very wide. That is why the US failed in Afghanistian to defeat the Taliban. The problem is that many Afghans still think like the Taliban. One generation of US aid failed to eradicate that. I suspect that many of the Afghan soliders who were better armed and more numerous than the Taliban feared that killing them will earn themselves hellfire. So they threw away their weapons.

The problem was that most Americans in Washington probably think like Steve where the Jews and Muslims in the Washington area are secular, Americanised and so open to modernity. But things are different in Afghanistan and other parts.
Hi Cass, you present a plausable case above that I am largely in agreement with - for now. I would even go a step further. It is precisely because the Americans along with their Western allies abroad are so worldly in their interests (and believe wrongly that everyone else is too) that they failed to understand and come to terms with the Afghans. They could not comprehend a people who did not regard worldly success as the be-all and end-all of everything (or like mediaevil Christians; who held to the conviction that this brief spell of earthly existence it merely a preparation period for the eternal afterlife to come.)

Even I would lack insight into this difference between our world and theirs except that I received my school education from Irish scholar monks - who spiritually (I have realised since after years of reflection) were a lot like Mediaevil Christians in their way of thinking. (Yes Cass, it is entirely possible for a bubble of spirituality from out of the Gothic Middle Ages to survive into our times). Very few in Western society today have had the benefit of an experience like that; hence the modern lack of empathy with peoples who live that way.

..... and you know Cass, I don't believe that secularism is the final answer. Only a temporary palative.

Secularism seems to mean that nothing is held to be sacred: in the end not even human life.

Beware!
Maybe that explains why I feel an affinity and even affection for you, Neverfail. I attended a missionary school pioneered by a 19th century British Methodist missionary. The values I gained were probably out of date with Britain even at that time. Fittingly, the school is called the Anglo Chinese school which gave me a bifocal view of the world.

But I also grew up in a multi cultural society mixing with Hindus, Muslims and Buddhists, most of whom too their faiths seriously. Unlike the foreign policy crowd in Washington, whose secularity blinded them, we grew up undesrtanding how important religion is in making policies. This can range into attempting to introduce democracy into a deeply religions Afghan population and accepting Muslim immigrants from such countries.
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Sertorio
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Re: Jewish Settlements in the West Bank

Post by Sertorio » Wed Nov 17, 2021 1:48 am

cassowary wrote:
Wed Nov 17, 2021 12:04 am

But I also grew up in a multi cultural society mixing with Hindus, Muslims and Buddhists, most of whom too their faiths seriously. Unlike the foreign policy crowd in Washington, whose secularity blinded them, we grew up undesrtanding how important religion is in making policies. This can range into attempting to introduce democracy into a deeply religions Afghan population and accepting Muslim immigrants from such countries.
Religions are curses on people. Ethics is important in making policies, and far too many religious people are deeply unethical...

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cassowary
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Re: Jewish Settlements in the West Bank

Post by cassowary » Wed Nov 17, 2021 6:20 am

Sertorio wrote:
Wed Nov 17, 2021 1:48 am
cassowary wrote:
Wed Nov 17, 2021 12:04 am

But I also grew up in a multi cultural society mixing with Hindus, Muslims and Buddhists, most of whom too their faiths seriously. Unlike the foreign policy crowd in Washington, whose secularity blinded them, we grew up undesrtanding how important religion is in making policies. This can range into attempting to introduce democracy into a deeply religions Afghan population and accepting Muslim immigrants from such countries.
Religions are curses on people. Ethics is important in making policies, and far too many religious people are deeply unethical...
Look at the evil that you atheists did. People like Mao, Hitler, Stalin , Fatty Kim, Pol pot.
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Sertorio
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Re: Jewish Settlements in the West Bank

Post by Sertorio » Wed Nov 17, 2021 6:23 am

cassowary wrote:
Wed Nov 17, 2021 6:20 am
Sertorio wrote:
Wed Nov 17, 2021 1:48 am
cassowary wrote:
Wed Nov 17, 2021 12:04 am

But I also grew up in a multi cultural society mixing with Hindus, Muslims and Buddhists, most of whom too their faiths seriously. Unlike the foreign policy crowd in Washington, whose secularity blinded them, we grew up undesrtanding how important religion is in making policies. This can range into attempting to introduce democracy into a deeply religions Afghan population and accepting Muslim immigrants from such countries.
Religions are curses on people. Ethics is important in making policies, and far too many religious people are deeply unethical...
Look at the evil that you atheists did. People like Mao, Hitler, Stalin , Fatty Kim, Pol pot.
It may surprise you, but some atheists are decent, good people... ;)

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SteveFoerster
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Re: Jewish Settlements in the West Bank

Post by SteveFoerster » Wed Nov 17, 2021 6:42 am

cassowary wrote:
Wed Nov 17, 2021 6:20 am
Sertorio wrote:
Wed Nov 17, 2021 1:48 am
cassowary wrote:
Wed Nov 17, 2021 12:04 am

But I also grew up in a multi cultural society mixing with Hindus, Muslims and Buddhists, most of whom too their faiths seriously. Unlike the foreign policy crowd in Washington, whose secularity blinded them, we grew up undesrtanding how important religion is in making policies. This can range into attempting to introduce democracy into a deeply religions Afghan population and accepting Muslim immigrants from such countries.
Religions are curses on people. Ethics is important in making policies, and far too many religious people are deeply unethical...
Look at the evil that you atheists did. People like Mao, Hitler, Stalin , Fatty Kim, Pol pot.
This will quickly become a nonsense conversation. Historically, evil seems to be evenly dispersed among nontheists and theists of every variety alike.
Writer, technologist, educator, gadfly.
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neverfail
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Re: Jewish Settlements in the West Bank

Post by neverfail » Wed Nov 17, 2021 1:33 pm

Sertorio wrote:
Wed Nov 17, 2021 6:23 am
It may surprise you, but some atheists are decent, good people... ;)
Yes, from experience I am inclined to agree with Sertorio in that Cassowary. There are good athiests as well as bad ones in this world - just as there are good and bad Christians.

Content of formal belief does not automatically predetermine good or bad conduct.

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Re: Jewish Settlements in the West Bank

Post by neverfail » Wed Nov 17, 2021 1:49 pm

cassowary wrote:
Wed Nov 17, 2021 12:04 am
Maybe that explains why I feel an affinity and even affection for you, Neverfail. I attended a missionary school pioneered by a 19th century British Methodist missionary. The values I gained were probably out of date with Britain even at that time. Fittingly, the school is called the Anglo Chinese school which gave me a bifocal view of the world.

But I also grew up in a multi cultural society mixing with Hindus, Muslims and Buddhists, most of whom too their faiths seriously. Unlike the foreign policy crowd in Washington, whose secularity blinded them, we grew up undesrtanding how important religion is in making policies. This can range into attempting to introduce democracy into a deeply religions Afghan population and accepting Muslim immigrants from such countries.
Thanks Cassowary.

Yes, in relation to the conventional wisdom prevailing in British society today this would be so. My own probably even more so because Irish society over the past generation or two have ditched the fervent (and fearful) Catholicism of yore (along with the authoritarianism that went hand-in-glove with it - and good ridance!) and become more like conventional Europeans. I did not realise it at the time but my Irish mentors of yore were the last of a doomed breed.

But Cass, do not despise what you learned at the Anglo Chinese school all those years ago. Fashions, a collective "herd" phenomium, change with time but the eternal truths we pick up are here forever. Important to distinguish between the two and in your case Cass I get the impression that you have.

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cassowary
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Re: Jewish Settlements in the West Bank

Post by cassowary » Wed Nov 17, 2021 4:57 pm

SteveFoerster wrote:
Wed Nov 17, 2021 6:42 am
cassowary wrote:
Wed Nov 17, 2021 6:20 am
Sertorio wrote:
Wed Nov 17, 2021 1:48 am
cassowary wrote:
Wed Nov 17, 2021 12:04 am

But I also grew up in a multi cultural society mixing with Hindus, Muslims and Buddhists, most of whom too their faiths seriously. Unlike the foreign policy crowd in Washington, whose secularity blinded them, we grew up undesrtanding how important religion is in making policies. This can range into attempting to introduce democracy into a deeply religions Afghan population and accepting Muslim immigrants from such countries.
Religions are curses on people. Ethics is important in making policies, and far too many religious people are deeply unethical...
Look at the evil that you atheists did. People like Mao, Hitler, Stalin , Fatty Kim, Pol pot.
This will quickly become a nonsense conversation. Historically, evil seems to be evenly dispersed among nontheists and theists of every variety alike.
But Steve, I look at the people responsible for most deaths in the last century. They were all Socialists and atheists. That’s my evidence.

One explanation of this is that without fear of divine punishment in the next world if not this one, people are less inhibited to do evil.
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neverfail
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Re: Jewish Settlements in the West Bank

Post by neverfail » Wed Nov 17, 2021 7:37 pm

cassowary wrote:
Wed Nov 17, 2021 4:57 pm
But Steve, I look at the people responsible for most deaths in the last century. They were all Socialists and atheists. That’s my evidence.
But you fail to distinguish between athiests who commit themselves to the service of the devil and those who do not. This former I would describe as "antiChrist" athiests.

In recent memory we even had an athiest Prime Minister of Australia named Julia Gillard who was surprisongly, agreeably Christian friendly. It is just that for private belief Christianity was not for her.
One explanation of this is that without fear of divine punishment in the next world if not this one, people are less inhibited to do evil.
Again your presumption seems to be that fear is a needed restraint as proof against bad behavour. No! The message we seem to get from the pulpit these days is the importance of filling up your own life and those of others with good. (i.e. good pushes away evil.)

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Sertorio
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Re: Jewish Settlements in the West Bank

Post by Sertorio » Thu Nov 18, 2021 2:21 am

cassowary wrote:
Wed Nov 17, 2021 4:57 pm

One explanation of this is that without fear of divine punishment in the next world if not this one, people are less inhibited to do evil.
A god who permanently needs to punish his creation maybe would need a refreshing course on "creation"...

If people spent some time actually thinking about the universe and its scale, and about us and our microscopic dimension, they would realize that our concerns with a creative divinity are quite ridiculous. We do have a place in the Universe but definitely not the one we seem to think... And if you wonder why we are here, my answer is simply to procreate and give a chance to evolution, as part of the evolution of the Universe itself... Once you procreate you may die, because there is nothing else the Universe needs from you... Of course, while you live you may do your best to make your environment a pleasing one, and make the life of our species and of the rest of the planet as nice as possible. But your cosmic mission is a very limited one indeed...And making war is definitely not a goal we should aspire to...

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